Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Hi all,

I bought a lovely black MiM Duo Sonic just around the corner after getting so fed up with a super heavy, chunky and somewhat funless Tele that was gifted to me last year. This tiny 22.5" scale is just magic, and the light weight great. I was actually looking for a particular Japanese Mustang all over Europe for a long time, without any luck but just had to get this one.

So now I have this wee Duo Sonic that someone had on his attic for 20+ years. I took it apart and cleaned it properly today, and now it's finally playing again instead of just making unpleasant noises from pretty much everything inside.

I want this guitar to be even more fun and would like to completely rebuild it.

Pickups: I have a rough idea but will probably start another thread on this.

Electronics/wiring: I love the out of phase switches on Mustangs, and I would love to do something more fun with this Duo Sonic as well, though space inside is very limited. Now, keep in mind I'm not an experienced player and have not done any electronics work since 8th grade at school. So I'm not sure what's actually possible or not. I guess it's not possible to keep the lovely looking three way toggle, and add an additional switch somewhere for out of phase, right? What options do I have? I tried to find a wiring diagram to show what my guitar looks like at the moment, but no luck yet. Replace pots with something better, and make sure sound remains great on low volume.

Outside: I would love a trem bar. As the body is probably too thin for everything else I'm probably looking at a Bigsby, Hofner or Xtreme top mount. Would need to find a similar bridge (don't want to wreck this one) so that I won't need to do woodworking/filling in holes and repainting, and then file the appropriate string openings into the back. Maybe I need to shin the neck, but if so then I'd look for help there as a small flat is not really suitable for wood working.

Rest: Still undecided. On one hand I think I should stick with this simple, white pickguard, on the other hand at least an somewhat thicker one would be better. Maybe 'not quite tort' (not quite as shiny and translucent) if I find something like that. Would love to keep the plastic tone and volume dials and plastic pickup covers.

Does anyone want to think along with me and at least help me on the way of figuring out what's possible and what not?

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

So yer wee lil guitar has single coils on it now or full sized humbucker

If it's the singles you have the option of
staying single
Getting stacked
Or riding rails

All of which will fit into the pickguard

As for the switch
There are so many types of three ways
If it's a 3 way blade
The swapping to a 5 or 6 way blade may open up those possibilities to you
If it's a toggle like a Gibson
Then a 6 way "free way " switch would do the same

As for the trem
I dont know

Could you post a pick of yer wee lil tike
Let us have a look see there?

:dunno:

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Yes, the guitar has single coils and I won't change that. I just love single coils. I'm mainly looking at wiring options available to me.

Toggle: bridge pickup, both (possibly in series. no humming, but not really louder), neck pickup.

It looks similar to this one (not mine): https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--LGti6ZyN--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_1600,q_80,w_1600/v1500585729/xkulaqtt2ptr5xruk6z4.jpg

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Just to clarify: if I found a 5 way toggle that its into the existing cavity then I could wire it up the following: bridge pickup out of phase, bridge pickup, both (series or parallel), neck pickup, neck pickup out of phase, or would that be too much?

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

That's gonna be a toggle not a blade
If you want the out of phase and such without new holes and switches
Then a Freeway Switch which is a toggle just like that
But has two "lanes" for each of the three positions

https://www.freewayswitch.com/products/

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.



Here's a 68 duosonic

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

You're gonna put a bigsby on that cute little guitar?!!

 

[zerosturm]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Not the direction your wanting to go but I assume this is the same MIM model you have? This was mine and as you can see I changed about everything on it. They are fun to mess around with but the electronics and most original parts on it are pretty sub par.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

It sounds like what you really need is a Mustang, not a Duo-Sonic. Mustang checks all the boxes except that it doesn't have the super short scale; Duo-Sonic checks none of them...except the extra short scale.

So what I would do, if keeping the extra short scale is very important to you, is to just make it a Mustang. Install a Mustang vibrato (or a Kahler vibrato, which is basically just a high-performance version of a Mustang vibrato). You can keep your stock switch (which is better than the Mustang switches anyhow IMO, because it's less fiddly and the middle position is series, not parallel). Then just install a phase switch on one of the pickups (you don't need it on both).

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

You're gonna put a bigsby on that cute little guitar?!!

Well, I wanted a guitar with a trem, and a top mount is the only option as it is a cute little guitar and not a big chunk of wood :dunno:

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

View attachment 97686 Not the direction your wanting to go but I assume this is the same MIM model you have? This was mine and as you can see I changed about everything on it. They are fun to mess around with but the electronics and most original parts on it are pretty sub par.

Yes, I think so. It's one of the 90s models, right? It wasn't what I wanted to buy originally, but this super short scale and shape just spoke to me and I ended up buying it, knowing very well it'd be a project rather than something I can just plug in and play. Though after the first few fixes, cleaning it thoroughly, adjusting bridge and pickups it does play very well (if not with a very inspiring sound).

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Here's a 68 duosonic

That's lovely! Looks like this one has more space under the hood to allow for the additional two switches.

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

It sounds like what you really need is a Mustang, not a Duo-Sonic. Mustang checks all the boxes except that it doesn't have the super short scale; Duo-Sonic checks none of them...except the extra short scale.

So what I would do, if keeping the extra short scale is very important to you, is to just make it a Mustang. Install a Mustang vibrato (or a Kahler vibrato, which is basically just a high-performance version of a Mustang vibrato). You can keep your stock switch (which is better than the Mustang switches anyhow IMO, because it's less fiddly and the middle position is series, not parallel). Then just install a phase switch on one of the pickups (you don't need it on both).

I was looking for a very specific CiJ/MiJ Mustang for a long time that's supposed to have the skinniest and narrowest neck. Never found one of those in Europe unfortunately apart from one that turned out to be super heavy. And with the problems associated with importing rosewood, and massive customs charges there was no point buying outside of Europe. Neck-wise, other Mustang models would not have offered more than my other guitar, which plays fine but whose neck feels just a bit too chunky to be really comfortable. Small girls' problems.

The problem with installing a Mustang type vibrato is that the Duo Sonic is too thin for that. There's no space in the body for the springs. Hence my idea of using a top mount, and I'm currently looking at different options there (doesn't need to be a Bigsby, but those are known to work well). The idea with the phase switch on one of the pickups is great. I didn't think this through and didn't realize only one random pickup needs to be out of phase. Yeah, lack of experience with this, I know. There should be space for one such switch with a bit of extra work.

I thought indeed that these Duo Sonics have a series circuit, but I don't really 'hear it'. Might just be the not so great electronics at the moment.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

The problem with installing a Mustang type vibrato is that the Duo Sonic is too thin for that. There's no space in the body for the springs. Hence my idea of using a top mount, and I'm currently looking at different options there (doesn't need to be a Bigsby, but those are known to work well).

This is not correct. Mustangs, Duo Sonics, and Musicmasters have traditionally been made from the same 1 1/2 inch thick slabs. Besides, the rout depth for a Mustang vibrato is 1 1/4 inches, so it would not be an issue even if the Mustang body was thicker. The rout depth for a Kahler is 1 inch (I have one of these on a 1 1/2 inch thick Fender). The rout depth for a Jaguar/Jazzmaster vibrato is 1 3/8 inches, which IMO is too close for comfort on the 1 1/2 inch bodies. A Bigsby is not a very good vibrato IMO. You can't do much with them, in comparison to a Mustang vibrato. This is how a Mustang is routed. You need to add the two bridge post holes as well as the spring cavities, and convert to a Mustang bridge (or a Jaguar/Jazzmaster bridge – same plate as a Mustang bridge, but with height-adjustable threaded saddles).



IMO, the combination of easiest to install, best quality, and best action/range vibrato to add on will be a Kahler. The only problems are that they are a bit expensive (almost $200, if I remember correctly), and you need to remember to oil them every now and then (easy). The Kahler takes the same basic design as the Mustang vibrato, but applies much more thought out engineering. The bridge is integral to the vibrato. Everything is easily adjustable, even string spacing (important to have this if installing a vibrato on a Duo Sonic, with narrow string spacing). There is built in roller action. Installation is easy. And of all the "new, improved" vibratos, it by far feels the most like a Mustang/Jazzmaster/Jaguar. Here is a Mustang with a Kahler:

The idea with the phase switch on one of the pickups is great. I didn't think this through and didn't realize only one random pickup needs to be out of phase. Yeah, lack of experience with this, I know. There should be space for one such switch with a bit of extra work.

It's an easy mod, and yes, you only need to put it on one pickup.

I thought indeed that these Duo Sonics have a series circuit, but I don't really 'hear it'. Might just be the not so great electronics at the moment.

I am not aware of how the '90s MIM ones were wired. Traditionally the pickups are in series in a Duo Sonic, and in parallel in a Mustang, so that is what I assumed. But that doesn't mean that the '90s MIM ones were wired that way. It's easy to tell the difference, though. Both will be hum canceling. Parallel will make the sound thinner, and series will make the sound thicker. If you gain treble and lose output in the middle, the pickups are in parallel. If you lose treble and gain output in the middle position, then the pickups are wired in series.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Bigsbys are a pain to restring, they don’t ‘return to zero’ reliably after using them, and usually require a bit of a break angle from the bridge which small Fenders don’t really have. (I’ve put one on my Tele with a Vibramate, but then hardly use it. It’s coming off at the next restring.) One of the Fender (or “top mount” Strat type like the Kahler as suggested) would be a better option.

I don’t believe a freeway switch will fit in the route for a Fender toggle. Need to see the guitar with the pick guard off to check.

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

This is not correct. Mustangs, Duo Sonics, and Musicmasters have traditionally been made from the same 1 1/2 inch thick slabs. Besides, the rout depth for a Mustang vibrato is 1 1/4 inches, so it would not be an issue even if the Mustang body was thicker. The rout depth for a Kahler is 1 inch (I have one of these on a 1 1/2 inch thick Fender). The rout depth for a Jaguar/Jazzmaster vibrato is 1 3/8 inches, which IMO is too close for comfort on the 1 1/2 inch bodies. A Bigsby is not a very good vibrato IMO. You can't do much with them, in comparison to a Mustang vibrato. This is how a Mustang is routed. You need to add the two bridge post holes as well as the spring cavities, and convert to a Mustang bridge (or a Jaguar/Jazzmaster bridge – same plate as a Mustang bridge, but with height-adjustable threaded saddles).

View attachment 97694

IMO, the combination of easiest to install, best quality, and best action/range vibrato to add on will be a Kahler. The only problems are that they are a bit expensive (almost $200, if I remember correctly), and you need to remember to oil them every now and then (easy). The Kahler takes the same basic design as the Mustang vibrato, but applies much more thought out engineering. The bridge is integral to the vibrato. Everything is easily adjustable, even string spacing (important to have this if installing a vibrato on a Duo Sonic, with narrow string spacing). There is built in roller action. Installation is easy. And of all the "new, improved" vibratos, it by far feels the most like a Mustang/Jazzmaster/Jaguar. Here is a Mustang with a Kahler:

View attachment 97695



It's an easy mod, and yes, you only need to put it on one pickup.



I am not aware of how the '90s MIM ones were wired. Traditionally the pickups are in series in a Duo Sonic, and in parallel in a Mustang, so that is what I assumed. But that doesn't mean that the '90s MIM ones were wired that way. It's easy to tell the difference, though. Both will be hum canceling. Parallel will make the sound thinner, and series will make the sound thicker. If you gain treble and lose output in the middle, the pickups are in parallel. If you lose treble and gain output in the middle position, then the pickups are wired in series.

Thanks for this. I just measured and the body is somewhere between 3.3 and 3.4cm = 1.3-ish inches. A Mustang vibrato would indeed work, but that means I know exactly what I'm doing and won't go too deep, though my experience with woodworking is even less than with electronics or adjusting metal parts. o I did find a community workshop in town, thus if I need to I can make use of that. I won't be using a Kahler vibrato because it looks too harsh (and rather ugly. My opinion of course). I could imagine something like that in a metal guitar, which doesn't interesting me in the slightest. I'm into alternative, underground, garage, surf. Guess I like the Bigsby esthetics, even though it's not quite as versatile as others. Looks-wise I also like the Mustang and Jag vintage bridges.

But I've not decided yet and try to stay open-minded as I've not decided on all the details yet. It's a longterm project. I'm glad I fixed the wee one to at least get good sound out other than crackling, humming and other noise.

Thanks also for the series/parallel explanation. I can't quite make up my mind there. It seems to be somewhere between bridge and neck, soundwise, but neither thinner nor thicker. But that doesn't matter as all this will eventually go anyway.

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Bigsbys are a pain to restring, they don’t ‘return to zero’ reliably after using them, and usually require a bit of a break angle from the bridge which small Fenders don’t really have. (I’ve put one on my Tele with a Vibramate, but then hardly use it. It’s coming off at the next restring.) One of the Fender (or “top mount” Strat type like the Kahler as suggested) would be a better option.

I don’t believe a freeway switch will fit in the route for a Fender toggle. Need to see the guitar with the pick guard off to check.

Thanks for this. I'll have to take her apart again and measure everything in detail to see what fits. There would be space under the pickguard for one switch if I add a cavity there. Not as long as for the double switches in a Mustang, but but just about enough for a single 2-3 way switch.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

Thanks for this. I just measured and the body is somewhere between 3.3 and 3.4cm = 1.3-ish inches. A Mustang vibrato would indeed work, but that means I know exactly what I'm doing and won't go too deep, though my experience with woodworking is even less than with electronics or adjusting metal parts. o I did find a community workshop in town, thus if I need to I can make use of that. I won't be using a Kahler vibrato because it looks too harsh (and rather ugly. My opinion of course). I could imagine something like that in a metal guitar, which doesn't interesting me in the slightest. I'm into alternative, underground, garage, surf. Guess I like the Bigsby esthetics, even though it's not quite as versatile as others. Looks-wise I also like the Mustang and Jag vintage bridges.

But I've not decided yet and try to stay open-minded as I've not decided on all the details yet. It's a longterm project. I'm glad I fixed the wee one to at least get good sound out other than crackling, humming and other noise.

Thanks also for the series/parallel explanation. I can't quite make up my mind there. It seems to be somewhere between bridge and neck, soundwise, but neither thinner nor thicker. But that doesn't matter as all this will eventually go anyway.

OK. But I just want to point out that FWIW, you said you don't like the image of a Kahler because it is associated with a genre you don't really like. Then the first genre you named that you do like (alternative) has Jerry Cantrell as one of its top two most known and respected guitarists. Well guess who is famous for playing a guitar with a Kahler vibrato (and is perhaps the most famous guitarist who is heavily associated with one)?

I don't dig heavy metal either, at least not from the period that is heavily associated with Kahlers (I pretty much like classic metal only, i.e. '70s metal). I don't like any guitarists who use one. I am mostly into old black American music, and the white rock and pop that is based on it – even less "wanky" than what you listen too. But the Kahler is simply a fantastic vibrato, period. It can get good use by almost any guitarist in almost any genre. And it will provide you with the easiest installation, the most adjustability, the highest build quality, and the most Mustang-like action of any other vibrato you could use. It solves all of your problems, except for your hangup on the way it looks.

The body thickness you posted explains your valid reluctance to installing a Mustang vibrato. I had no idea that the '90s MIM Duo Sonics were even thinner than the old 1 1/2 inch ones from the '50s through the '70s. If you really are at only approximately 1 5/16 inches thick, you definitely don't want to install a Mustang vibrato, which requires a 1 1/4 inch depth. That leaves you with only 1/16 inch padding. You need a Kahler or a Bigsby or a Stetsbar.

You don't need to remove the stock switch. You just need to add a phase reversal switch to one pickup.

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

This might take more research than I can do at the moment, but the Mustang was originally available with a 22.5" scale. IDK if the bridge placement is the same as on a 24" Mustang, but if it is you could, in theory, swap you Duo-Sonic neck onto a Mustang.

 

[WeeGuitarGirl]

Re: Moding a MiM Duo Sonic. Looking for ideas.

This might take more research than I can do at the moment, but the Mustang was originally available with a 22.5" scale. IDK if the bridge placement is the same as on a 24" Mustang, but if it is you could, in theory, swap you Duo-Sonic neck onto a Mustang.

Hmm.. this might be a wee bit expensive, though I did consider it. A rubbished Mustang will still cost at least 500 Euro, and then I probably still need to fix various things. The new Mustangs just don't work for me. It would depend on the pocket width I guess. My guitar has a nut width of about 39mm, while most Mustangs come in at 41-42mm. Don't know though how wide they get at the bottom. I heard that Jagstangs are similar, but their bodies are rather heavy and big again.