Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

[zionstrat]

My question is simple- with any design, is there always no electrical circuit impact when modifying the design to put the cap between the pots (or visa versa?)

Sometimes it's easier to put the cap in between the vol and tone pots and other times, it's easier to ground the cap to the back of the tone pot. I have always heard that there is no difference from an electrical perspective (although I don't know why this is true- The circuit looks significantly different to one who doesn't understand).

However, I have always been hesitant to make the change in case there are exceptions to the rule.

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed before, but I couldn't find the right search terms to get the answer, I appreciate your answers and any other thoughts about this mod.

Cheers,
ZStrat

 

[AlexR]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

The cap + path to ground is the same electrically. Whether the cap is first ( before the resistive track) or not doesn't change its value nor the resistance of the tone pot to ground at any one position.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

The cap + path to ground is the same electrically. Whether the cap is first ( before the resistive track) or not doesn't change its value nor the resistance of the tone pot to ground at any one position.

Thanks Alex!
To sum it up, order doesn't matter, so I can move the cap whenever it makes sense.

Much appreciated-
M

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

Order doesn’t matter.

What does matter is if the tone control is connected at the input of the volume control (“modern”) or at the output of the volume pot (“50’s”).

 

[Jacew]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

Order doesn’t matter.

What does matter is if the tone control is connected at the input of the volume control (“modern”) or at the output of the volume pot (“50’s”).

I've never understood the point in "modern" way to add tone circuit. It's practically designed to darken the tone when rolling volume back: Why?

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

^ I'm a bassy guy so I like mod wiring. Rolling back the vol sounds different from rolling back the tone so it's a different way to darken the sound.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

I've never understood the point in "modern" way to add tone circuit. It's practically designed to darken the tone when rolling volume back: Why?

It wasn't about darkening the tone....it was about removing the loading that the tone circuit adds in when both it and the volume are not at 10. You have bass rolloff as well as the tone control dropping back the volume as it rolls back. For all its faults, modern wiring doesn't have this issue.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

It wasn't about darkening the tone....it was about removing the loading that the tone circuit adds in when both it and the volume are not at 10. You have bass rolloff as well as the tone control dropping back the volume as it rolls back. For all its faults, modern wiring doesn't have this issue.

I don't understand: Tone pot is parallel with signal and ground, just like volume. Only difference the position makes, is that when tone is between volume and pickup, the added inline resistance diverts more signal through the cap.

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

Some people really like how the tone darkens when they roll off the volume, it fits their style of playing. There is no wrong or right way of wiring - either modern or vintage (50's) - only personal preference. I personally like to keep as much treble as possible when rolling the vol down, but I certainly understand why some players don't. It's all ok.

And like was said, it doesn't matter about placement of the cap. I know that it can be hard to understand why, but if you had two resisters in series, one 100k ohms and one only 20 ohms, would it matter which one you put first? (Yes, that was a rhetorical question). It's the same thing for a cap and a resister.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

I used to prefer 50’s and did it to all of my guitars. Even my Strats and Teles.

Wired them that way for a couple of years and I liked the clarity.

Then, after awhile, I started hearing the overall tone as being too bright. Thin and steely when I’d turn my guitar’s volume pot down, especially at low volume gigs like church gigs.

So I went back to modern and now I prefer modern. Sounds fatter and richer to me, especially with my Fenders.

If I need more treble when I roll down the volume I’ll use a 180 pf cap across the volume control like PRS does.

It’s extremely subtle. I can barely hear the difference but it does help...if help is even needed.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

Some people really like how the tone darkens when they roll off the volume, it fits their style of playing. There is no wrong or right way of wiring - either modern or vintage (50's) - only personal preference. I personally like to keep as much treble as possible when rolling the vol down, but I certainly understand why some players don't. It's all ok.

I agree. I do like the effect of 50's wiring, as it still does darken the tone just the right amount when rolling volume down.

And like was said, it doesn't matter about placement of the cap. I know that it can be hard to understand why, but if you had two resisters in parallel, one 100k ohms and one only 20 ohms, would it matter which one you put first? (Yes, that was a rhetorical question). It's the same thing for a cap and a resister.

Exactly. AlexR's response seemed to say the opposite..?

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

I've never understood the point in "modern" way to add tone circuit. It's practically designed to darken the tone when rolling volume back: Why?

Jacew, great question. it's a bit off topic, but since I'm the OP, here's my take....

To me, it's all about what you need... I've got a big hunk of mahogany L5S design with pups that drive and sing at 10... Lots of compression and very little dirt... They are driving into that rich harmonic space somewhere between Holdsworth and Santana but with plenty of high end.

However, this guitar is ridiculously flexible. Same settings but back vol off from 10 and it immediately changes... From 6 to 9 it has a wonderful blues timbre. Very little volume drop, but starts to breakup and get very dirty as the harmonics become less complex... Compression goes away and the high end drops off to provide a much more gutteral sound... Covers Albert king to early acdc well in this vol range.

Of course, this behavior is a result of the right pups using modern wiring.

So for me, it comes down to what I'm looking for. I like 50s I like modern and have a build where I plan to try out the modern to 50s switch...it's an easy mod.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

And like was said, it doesn't matter about placement of the cap. I know that it can be hard to understand why, but if you had two resisters in parallel, one 100k ohms and one only 20 ohms, would it matter which one you put first? (Yes, that was a rhetorical question). It's the same thing for a cap and a resister.

Ah, now I get it... My ee theory sucks, but you got it down to the level I understand... Much appreciated.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Mincer]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

Some people really like how the tone darkens when they roll off the volume, it fits their style of playing. There is no wrong or right way of wiring - either modern or vintage (50's) - only personal preference. I personally like to keep as much treble as possible when rolling the vol down, but I certainly understand why some players don't. It's all ok.

And like was said, it doesn't matter about placement of the cap. I know that it can be hard to understand why, but if you had two resisters in parallel, one 100k ohms and one only 20 ohms, would it matter which one you put first? (Yes, that was a rhetorical question). It's the same thing for a cap and a resister.

I am one of these people. I use this for cleaner, jazzy playing. I am constantly battling treble, which comes out in my preference for pickups (Custom Custom, Alnico II Pro). As I met more and more guitarists through my life, I realized that most like a brighter sound.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

I agree. I do like the effect of 50's wiring, as it still does darken the tone just the right amount when rolling volume down.



Exactly. AlexR's response seemed to say the opposite..?

My response said just the same about placement of components in the tone circuit - go back and read it....its post number 2 if you need further guidance there.

As to 50's/modern, the tone and volume pots are not doing the same thing. They may be parallel paths to ground, but the signal passes through the volume pot as part of the circuit, but not the tone pot. It merely represents an alternative ground/filter. The hot circuit therefore sees this alternative ground in a different way depending on where it is placed.
Attached to the input lug it works similarly to a different value volume pot - and we all should know that vol pot values affect the resonant peak making the pickup wholly brighter/darker depending on the value. So the tone circuit loads down the pickup as the volume is turned down.
Having 50's wiring detaches this loading of the pickup. So you keep the volume pot value for the resonant peak intact, leading to the naturally brighter tone.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

My response said just the same about placement of components in the tone circuit - go back and read it....its post number 2 if you need further guidance there.

As to 50's/modern, the tone and volume pots are not doing the same thing. They may be parallel paths to ground, but the signal passes through the volume pot as part of the circuit, but not the tone pot. It merely represents an alternative ground/filter. The hot circuit therefore sees this alternative ground in a different way depending on where it is placed.
Attached to the input lug it works similarly to a different value volume pot - and we all should know that vol pot values affect the resonant peak making the pickup wholly brighter/darker depending on the value. So the tone circuit loads down the pickup as the volume is turned down.
Having 50's wiring detaches this loading of the pickup. So you keep the volume pot value for the resonant peak intact, leading to the naturally brighter tone.

I think he was referring to your post #6 where you said that "modern" wiring doesn't have the problems of tone roll-off.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

^ Dunno.....he quoted a part of your post that had to do with the order of the cap and resistor in making that response. Hence perhaps some confusion.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

My response said just the same about placement of components in the tone circuit - go back and read it....its post number 2 if you need further guidance there.

As to 50's/modern, the tone and volume pots are not doing the same thing. They may be parallel paths to ground, but the signal passes through the volume pot as part of the circuit, but not the tone pot. It merely represents an alternative ground/filter. The hot circuit therefore sees this alternative ground in a different way depending on where it is placed.
Attached to the input lug it works similarly to a different value volume pot - and we all should know that vol pot values affect the resonant peak making the pickup wholly brighter/darker depending on the value. So the tone circuit loads down the pickup as the volume is turned down.
Having 50's wiring detaches this loading of the pickup. So you keep the volume pot value for the resonant peak intact, leading to the naturally brighter tone.

Good point definitely!

I was referring to post #7. It was just the way you wrote it that I didn't understand.

Edit: I still not understand that post. You seem to have mixed up the 50's and modern wiring there, saying that modern wiring reduces the load and makes it brighter.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

No, the part about the modern wiring in the quoted post above mentions increased loading (making it darker). The parallel resistances make the whole effect like a lower value volume pot - darker. The higher/lower worded bit was an explanation of how different value pots affect the resonant peak without specifically mentioning the specific effect each value individually has.
I guess what happens is that in order not to write a thesis each post then some confusion can creep in depending on how you read the phrases.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Moving the tone cap from lugs to cover- when is this possible? Question for gurus

No, the part about the modern wiring in the quoted post above mentions increased loading (making it darker). The parallel resistances make the whole effect like a lower value volume pot - darker. The higher/lower worded bit was an explanation of how different value pots affect the resonant peak without specifically mentioning the specific effect each value individually has.
I guess what happens is that in order not to write a thesis each post then some confusion can creep in depending on how you read the phrases.

My bad. I guess it's not being english speaker that makes it so cryptic.