My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

[treyhaislip]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Cool project, please keep us posted!

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I owe those who offered their good advice an update during my 'holding pattern' period:

I ordered lacquer primer and sand/sealer from ReRanch along with his 3M buffing polish (but I have Meguiars on-hand anyway in case I want to switch it up.) I admit I only did not initially order those things for two reasons - 1. They were not available in the Reranch store at the time (sold out?) and I didn't want to substitute anything that is not nitro lacquer (take the debate to another thread, but only lacquer is going on this guitar) 2. There wasn't any mention made from my sources that G&L originally used primer, and I'm trying to stay somewhat true to what was done from the factory.

That said - the point was made that primer is probably a good idea so now I'm doing it, likely instead of the clear that G&L apparently used after the sealer. It's around 70 degs. when I wake up at 5:00 AM so once I get the additional materials I'll finally start spraying. I'm still aiming to use no more than one can of black and no more than one can of clear for a 'thin skin' but may reconsider along the way. I really don't mind much if it is susceptible to chips/wear; I plan on sort of babying it once it's done (and if it does wear, the neck is already worn to match it.)

My initial source of '80s G&L finishing info also implied no sand & sealer or final clear over non-transparent colors was used, but it seems like I have updated/more accurate information which does not corroborate that if anyone cares to read through a history lesson:

The following was originally posted by Fred Finisher June 25-29, 2012.
He was an employee in the finishing department from 1978 (CLF Research/Music Man/G&L) until Dec. 1985.

Today I will touch on the topic of finishing because this seems to be more interesting to most enthusiasts.

There have been questions as to how the finishes were applied and what was used that I would like to touch on.
For starters, let's talk about prep. Sanding is the most thankless job in the shop no matter what field you're in.
A poor sanding job will result in a poor finish and feel. A body or neck is shaped and finish sanded prior to coming
into the finish department. Depending on the species of wood, the next step is to final sand and seal or apply a paste
wood filler ( colored for Mahogany, Natural for Ash ). The filler was applied by brush allowed to dry then wiped off
across the grain with burlap in order to leave as much as possible in the pores of the wood. If this is not done, the
finish will continue to shrink into the grain of the wood and will look like an amateur did it. Once the filler is lightly
sanded the base coats can be applied after a sanding sealer is applied and scuff sanded.This is something that has
to be done very lightly at first or there will be air bubbles and other problems to deal with. Four coats of clear was
applied to create a base coat prior to any color being applied. This might come as a surprise to some but the colors
were applied over the base coats. They were not wipe on stains or sprayed directly on the wood. The base coats
until around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer. There were no polyester or polyurethane base coats prior to
that time. After four coats were applied and dry, they had to be smooth sanded before the color ( or in the case of
natural ) and top coats could be applied. I will continue this process breakdown throughout the day. I hope you will
stay tuned.
Fred

Footnote: When I say no polys were used prior to 1985 I mean at G&L. The very first CLF instruments did have
polyester base coats which were discontinued because of check cracking.

To clear things up about what was used, all G&L guitars before around 1985 were 100% nitro cellulose lacquer finishes.
Around '85 we began to shoot a two part polyurethane for base coats only. Bodies that were made of Ash or Mahogany
were filled with a paste wood filler. This was a time consuming process but necessary to get the smooth finish necessary
for these guitars to look right. The mahogany bodies were discontinued early on when Leo became convinced that the
tone of these instruments was not as good as the maple and ash bodies. When this happened, the bodies in production
were pulled and destroyed so any early G&L's that are mahogany are from a small group that were completed prior to this
change. The bodies came into the finish department presanded by the woodshop but not completely sanded. The final
sanding took place in finishing and then they were either filled or sealed right away. A lacquer sanding sealer was used
for this. This was then scuff sanded before four coats of clear lacquer was applied as a base coat. Filled bodies had to be
coated carefully or they would get air bubbles that were hard to remedy. Once the base coats were applied, they would
need to be scuff sanded to remove the orange peel and grain that might show through.

After the sanding was complete, the color coats were done. If a body was to remain natural, it of course was merely
sprayed with clear lacquer. If it was to be colored the process could be as simple as spraying on a solid color such
as black. If it was to be a sunburst for example, you would begin with the yellow base coat over the entire body, followed
by the cherry red perimeter being careful not to get it too dark or light, then the last step would be to apply the dark brown
perimeter burst. The outside edge needed to be opaque but the face and back of the instrument had to have a certain see
through quality to it in order for it not to look like it was "masked off". There were variances in these finishes but most were
pretty consistent. The see through blues and reds were especially touchy because they could come out blotchy or too dark.
After the colors were applied, six coats of clear nitro was sprayed on. Sometime early on we began to make it a bit easier for
the polishing department by stopping before the last coat and sanding the lacquer smooth before spraying on the last coat.
This made it easier for them to remove the orange peel during the wet sanding process. Once the final coat was applied the
bodies were allowed to dry for two weeks. This made it possible to wet sand and polish the bodies to a high gloss without
worrying about the lacquer shrinking prematurely. The necks were sprayed with a total of six coats also but they were buffed
out much sooner because there was less lacquer to dry. Once we began to spray colors on headstocks, there were some
changes on how we got them complete. Although this looked better, there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the
extra effort needed to complete them. We had a base plus bonus per piece system in place so any changes caused a lot of
heartburn with those of us who had to do the extra work.

After the bodies and necks were dry enough, they were wet sanded to a 600 grit paper using a soap and water solution. This
process took some finesse because a little too much water and the cavities and holes would swell. The buffing was done by
machine which required steady hands and focus or you stood a chance of having a high speed neck or body crack you in the
ribs or like one of the guys even worse, right between the eyes. Once the edges were polished, the top and back were polished
by a hand held buffer similar to what you see used for detailing cars. These finishes were scrutinized for defects because
nobody wanted any sub par instruments leaving the factory.

I hope this sheds a little light on what it takes to make a guitar look as good as it does when it leaves the factory.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

One thing about me - I HATE taking things apart; but not as much as a hate *having* them apart. Trust me; pulling this thing to pieces is the most difficult/procrastination-incurring part of this for me, so I anticipate updates should be more regular (even if I really want to take my time and get this right when it comes to actually laying on finish.

Again if you see me about to do something stupid, please stop me

How dumb is it that I want to preserve this patch of the original finish below the neck plate?

Trivia - The F100 is the only guitar G&L made with both string-through design and the Saddle-lock bridge. The saddles are also totally unique. Visible are the bridge boss, and the ground wire to the copper shield plate (now removed for the refin.)

This is an '83 per the factory log-book...

Scribbling

Some awesome previous owner cut and spliced the pickup wires, so I un-spliced them at the same point; all of ~7.4k in both humbuckers (3.7 per coil,) but they're hot!

Birds nest I'm glad to not need to deal with; splices again not mine. Not original wiring by some percentage

Cavity stuffed like an embalmed corpse; don't care about overspray in it, but figured might as well seal it off a bit. Ferrules came out pretty easy, everything is cataloged and packed away for re-assembly. Wadded up paper in the ferrule holes and stuffed toothpicks in the pickup holes (they're metal inserts/threaded.)

Next stop is a scuff of the body w/ 3M pad & light sanding, and let's see how the nitro sand/sealer from ReRanch goes on...

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I owe those who offered their good advice an update during my 'holding pattern' period:

I ordered lacquer primer and sand/sealer from ReRanch along with his 3M buffing polish (but I have Meguiars on-hand anyway in case I want to switch it up.) I admit I only did not initially order those things for two reasons - 1. They were not available in the Reranch store at the time (sold out?) and I didn't want to substitute anything that is not nitro lacquer (take the debate to another thread, but only lacquer is going on this guitar) 2. There wasn't any mention made from my sources that G&L originally used primer, and I'm trying to stay somewhat true to what was done from the factory.

That said - the point was made that primer is probably a good idea so now I'm doing it, likely instead of the clear that G&L apparently used after the sealer. It's around 70 degs. when I wake up at 5:00 AM so once I get the additional materials I'll finally start spraying. I'm still aiming to use no more than one can of black and no more than one can of clear for a 'thin skin' but may reconsider along the way. I really don't mind much if it is susceptible to chips/wear; I plan on sort of babying it once it's done (and if it does wear, the neck is already worn to match it.)

My initial source of '80s G&L finishing info also implied no sand & sealer or final clear over non-transparent colors was used, but it seems like I have updated/more accurate information which does not corroborate that if anyone cares to read through a history lesson:

That quote from the G&L worker was a great read -for me at least. Very informative. Six clears seems like a lot but most of it gets wet sanded and buffed off. It seems like an excessive amount of prep work, but they were just making sure that the surface was level and would stay level before it got the color coat.

 

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

grain filler?

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

grain filler?

Using Reranch oil based grain filler and the body sure needs it. First applying a layer of reranch Sand & Seal, then another layer of Sand & Seal above the filler prior to subsequent coats.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

It's good to finally see it apart.


A couple things:


1. Definitely silly to try to leave that bit of original finish there. Just take it off IMO.


2. I'm surprised at how raggedy the cavities look. I would try cleaning those up nicely before spraying anything.


3. I would not mask the control cavity. There might be an argument to be made that you should go ahead and mask the neck pocket (though I usually do not), but there isn't much reason to mask the control cavity or pickup routs IMO.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Pickup cavities seem to be full of sawdust and random dirt from years of playing. Agreed they'll need to be emptied out in case it shifts and spoils the wet paint. I mostly just stuffed & masked over the control cavity to avoid pulling the copper shield out.

The neck pocket fit is already very tight, so hoping to avoid any fit issues by masking it off.

 

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Grain filler has always caused me to go back for a re dos....am trying something the furniture guys are raving about....this time trying Aqua Coat...first pass seems to be much easier to apply and get worked into the grain...never know until the paint hits the wood...

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I wish someone made a YouTube tutorial on using the reranch stuff specifically. Hard to even find pics of it going on.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Grain filler has always caused me to go back for a re dos....am trying something the furniture guys are raving about....this time trying Aqua Coat...first pass seems to be much easier to apply and get worked into the grain...never know until the paint hits the wood...

No-pic update: I Sand/Sealed last week (three coats,) and just wrapped up *I hope* the main grain-filling phase. The Re-Ranch filler is pretty watery & required mixing as my batch separated in the can. That said, I learned a lighter application is better; my initial attempt came out a too goopy/thick on the guitar's surface, so I sanded most of it off; which wasn't as fun or quick as I thought it would be. The tin says to wait 5 mins before wiping off excess; I found fifteen/twenty more suitable, using a very light coat of filler and a very complete wipe afterward. After sanding the first attempt back I repeated the grain-fill of the entire body twice to be sure I had coverage; might have sanded through the sealer in a few places, but I'm re-sealing all of it anyway. Had plenty left in the tin for the half-dozen deeper nicks & gouges I needed to spot-fill.

Also: the ReRanch website & label steps said to allow for overnight drying before sanding, so I did. It didn't gum up my sandpaper too much, but it also wasn't particularly hardened by that point so I'll prob. wait till at least Monday for the next Sand & Seal coat. Whole process really wasn't too messy or unpleasant.

The ReRanch grain filler is gray in appearance and for the most part dries clear; pretty happy with the result so far, the guitar surface is smooth and looks like the dining table at a medium-grade steakhouse. Almost tempted to just clear over it as the woodgrain is not un-attractive; but I can strip it and do that any time. For now I'll persist to black

 

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

No-pic update: I Sand/Sealed last week (three coats,) and just wrapped up *I hope* the main grain-filling phase. The Re-Ranch filler is pretty watery & required mixing as my batch separated in the can. That said, I learned a lighter application is better; my initial attempt came out a too goopy/thick on the guitar's surface, so I sanded most of it off; which wasn't as fun or quick as I thought it would be. The tin says to wait 5 mins before wiping off excess; I found fifteen/twenty more suitable, using a very light coat of filler and a very complete wipe afterward. After sanding the first attempt back I repeated the grain-fill of the entire body twice to be sure I had coverage; might have sanded through the sealer in a few places, but I'm re-sealing all of it anyway. Had plenty left in the tin for the half-dozen deeper nicks & gouges I needed to spot-fill.

Also: the ReRanch website & label steps said to allow for overnight drying before sanding, so I did. It didn't gum up my sandpaper too much, but it also wasn't particularly hardened by that point so I'll prob. wait till at least Monday for the next Sand & Seal coat. Whole process really wasn't too messy or unpleasant.

The ReRanch grain filler is gray in appearance and for the most part dries clear; pretty happy with the result so far, the guitar surface is smooth and looks like the dining table at a medium-grade steakhouse. Almost tempted to just clear over it as the woodgrain is not un-attractive; but I can strip it and do that any time. For now I'll persist to black

Glad to hear it is working out...the Aqua Coat worked perfectly...quicker, easier and better results than I was able to get with either Reranch or SteMac grain filler...primer coat came out without a sign of a grain...
Soldier on sir...respect your courage to go for the black...toughest of them all, me thinks...

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Grain filling is a step you can do several times. Once and done may not do it. I usually put some black analine dye or some ebony stain in the oil based grain fillers, especially if the finish will be transparent. Of course it doesn't matter either way with black.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Nice F-100! I like the natural mahogany!

Bill

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

I intended this thread go step-by-step, if I had problems along the way- but instead I'm making very good progress and pleased with the observable results so far. So instead of continuing updates I'll just pic-bomb the final resort once it's together, and not bump this thread further (except for real-time issues/questions I encounter.)

Speaking of Curious to hear from the expert finishers here: I understand it's two weeks minimum before final wet sand/polish and I might wait longer. But ideally when it comes to flatting out orange peel or overspray in the final clear coat, is there any good reason to wait two weeks before doing that?

Nice F-100! I like the natural mahogany!

Bill

Thanks! Again the grain didn't look bad, but I burned that bridge using the ReRanch grain filler for deep gouges the previous owner's tools made; opaque grey in those spots. Anyway the grain is now all covered & no regrets- Part of me is a stickler for 'factory' and part of me adapted to the idea of three black G&ls.

(...I somewhat doubt the quote about mahogany being rare/destroyed by G&L; if that was the case G&L apparently went through a reconciliation by the time my guitar was made ~3 years into production as one of the last F100s made before they went to the bi-cut neck. Seems a lot of solid color F100s are mahogany (transparent finishes being more ash/some mahogany.) I often hear F100s called over-bright, but mine rather has enormous bass; I think that's between: the body wood, the bridge pickup treble pot (vs. not in circuit earlier in production,) and (with doubt) the late-style allen-head pickups.

Grain filling is a step you can do several times. Once and done may not do it. I usually put some black analine dye or some ebony stain in the oil based grain fillers, especially if the finish will be transparent. Of course it doesn't matter either way with black.

I did wind up doing it a couple more times, after I noticed some grain sticking out still after my secondary coats of sealer. As mentioned above, I sort of didn't want to put dye in the grain filler, in case I chickened out and wanted to go transparent; no going back from ugly gray filler where a previous owner's screwdriver slipped

Glad to hear it is working out...the Aqua Coat worked perfectly...quicker, easier and better results than I was able to get with either Reranch or SteMac grain filler...primer coat came out without a sign of a grain...
Soldier on sir...respect your courage to go for the black...toughest of them all, me thinks...

Looks awesome Repeats of grain-fill did not turn out to be my favorite part of the process, and as far as I'm concerned the less time needed the better.

 

[justFred]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Reranch Arctic white and niro clear coat....two weeks and final sand and polish

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

May as well be candid and post my setback, which I keep telling myself is minor:

Very close to the final clear coats, and I get blush Rookie mistake- I waited for the temp. to get down to 75 in the later evening before spraying (per my usual) but neglected to realize the humidity today is also 75% . How is that even possible in SoCal on a clear, bright blue day? I did not even think to check, as it doesn't even feel humid and again- I'm not in Florida, ****ing god.

Anyway, somewhat lucky for my ego anyway- the front of the guitar is not affected. I was spraying the diagonal between the back of the guitar and the edge when it happened so there are two relatively minor spots on the upper treble-side edge of the guitar, one very minor spot on the back, and one freaking giant two inch thick streak on the back/edge above where your thigh would be. They all seem to be getting smaller- but after a couple hours, all are still visible. Anyway - Right now I just hope I die of old age soon, I'm so pissed at myself.

Then again, I have blush remover on order, and I understand this is not the end of the world. I hope? Initially only wanted to post the below happy pics...

...

One can clear, in the good old days with no blush:

Pre-Clear:

Primer:

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

What the hell, here are some crap pics of the blush:

Half the spots disappeared as it turns out. One thing I notice is that the blushed areas are a lot more matte & smooth; I could almost mistake them for having been sanded flat rather than really being 'cloudy.' Sort of wonder what would happen if I just sprayed more clear on top to add back the gloss & re-flow things.

This one is almost gone- actually:

This one still looks ****ing nasty:

(Actually not quite this bad in person without the flash but- still.)

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

Sand it down and re color coat. If it looks bad, it will likely still look bad with more clear.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: My Nitro Refin Progress Thread

As of this moment it looks a lot better- you can tell where the blush was because the paint surface is actually textured different (smoother/flatter/no orange-peel; an effect of escaping moisture?) but it isn't really hazy/milky at this point.

I'll use the blush remover when it arrives and try to put a bit of clear on top to see what happens/whether it blends or looks obvious. If it doesn't blend, I'll sand down more. Sounds like a scuff/sanding can also aid the blush escaping the finish?