Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
- Thread starter BigDreamer
- Start date
J Moose
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Ok then Mr. not particularly knowledgeable...
Where did you get the idea that the average tube head draws about the same or less power then a couple of 100 watt lightbulbs???
The average tube amp, under load is probably eating 2-5amps of a 15 amp circuit... the average lightbulb uses about .2 amps of the same circuit.
As for what could fail under low voltage?
Tubes for one.
Low voltage into the amp... really low... like 90 volts will lead to cathode stripping inside the tubes which will lead to other failures.
If you don't know what 'yer talking about then keep 'yer mouth shut.
Peace.
Ok then Mr. not particularly knowledgeable...
Where did you get the idea that the average tube head draws about the same or less power then a couple of 100 watt lightbulbs???
The average tube amp, under load is probably eating 2-5amps of a 15 amp circuit... the average lightbulb uses about .2 amps of the same circuit.
As for what could fail under low voltage?
Tubes for one.
Low voltage into the amp... really low... like 90 volts will lead to cathode stripping inside the tubes which will lead to other failures.
If you don't know what 'yer talking about then keep 'yer mouth shut.
Peace.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
I'll put my powermeter to my Marshall later today. And I said a lamp with several 100 Watts lightbulbs.
As for cathode stripping as a result of low voltage from the power supply, I don't see anybody claiming that. You got any links?
I'll put my powermeter to my Marshall later today. And I said a lamp with several 100 Watts lightbulbs.
As for cathode stripping as a result of low voltage from the power supply, I don't see anybody claiming that. You got any links?
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Power consumption as measured on my 50 W JMP this morning:
- standby warming up 80 W
- standby after warmed up 38 W
- go hot (no standby) but idle: 82 W
- playing: between 103 - 148 W
There is no way that this make an A/C circuit collapse that can take 1100 watts water kettle.
Power consumption as measured on my 50 W JMP this morning:
- standby warming up 80 W
- standby after warmed up 38 W
- go hot (no standby) but idle: 82 W
- playing: between 103 - 148 W
There is no way that this make an A/C circuit collapse that can take 1100 watts water kettle.
RLee
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, it's a loose AC power wire in the wall, and the vibration from the amp's bass tones is causing it to make/break intermittently... I've actually had a subwoofer do this to a loose AC outlet before.
Unless, as I mentioned earlier, it's a loose AC power wire in the wall, and the vibration from the amp's bass tones is causing it to make/break intermittently... I've actually had a subwoofer do this to a loose AC outlet before.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
But then you would see the light in the amp flicker.
I think the best way to test this would be:
- put powerstrip into wall
- put amp into powerstrip
- put lamp into powerstrip, turn it on
If the amp causes any problems with the A/C supply, be it mechanical or electrical, you would see the lamp go darker or flicker.
But then you would see the light in the amp flicker.
I think the best way to test this would be:
- put powerstrip into wall
- put amp into powerstrip
- put lamp into powerstrip, turn it on
If the amp causes any problems with the A/C supply, be it mechanical or electrical, you would see the lamp go darker or flicker.
BigDreamer
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
UPDATE:
So I just got back from the space, and I tried a number of things.
First, interestingly enough, I plugged a multimeter into the outlets there and it actually showed that I was getting a little over 130v per socket, except for one outlet that read nothing, and I assume just doesn't work.
Second, I found a breaker in the room, with a mere two switches on it. One read 15"something" and the other 20"something." I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but I assume this is an amps/current thing?
Thirdly, I brought the one guitar that had made even the solid state crate act a bit funky, and played it for awhile with everything else plugged in but only the lights on. And then I played with everything turned on--two solid state bass amps, a pa, a fan, Christmas lights, and a normal light. Totally fine.
Now I'm starting to think what RLee said might have some truth to it. Even though this problem started when my bassist was away, he has been using a different bass amp lately that does rumble quite a bit more than the last, so maybe that could be affecting at least my amp, as it has been known to make strange popping sounds from microphonic tubes and the like on rickety stages.
I would love to get an electrician's opinion on things, but I'm not up what would surely be hundreds just to have it inspected.
What I'm kind of thinking now is getting a Furman Power Conditioner of some kind and then trying the amps again. I can't really afford the like $500 ones that supposedly regulate the amount of voltage to exactly 120v. But, do the $100~ ones do anything? At this point while voltage regulation and all that stuff that might fix the problem would be nice, I just want to be able to plug my amp in and feel safe that if the conditions in the wall stay as they are, my, or anybody else's amps won't be damaged.
What do you guys think?
UPDATE:
So I just got back from the space, and I tried a number of things.
First, interestingly enough, I plugged a multimeter into the outlets there and it actually showed that I was getting a little over 130v per socket, except for one outlet that read nothing, and I assume just doesn't work.
Second, I found a breaker in the room, with a mere two switches on it. One read 15"something" and the other 20"something." I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but I assume this is an amps/current thing?
Thirdly, I brought the one guitar that had made even the solid state crate act a bit funky, and played it for awhile with everything else plugged in but only the lights on. And then I played with everything turned on--two solid state bass amps, a pa, a fan, Christmas lights, and a normal light. Totally fine.
Now I'm starting to think what RLee said might have some truth to it. Even though this problem started when my bassist was away, he has been using a different bass amp lately that does rumble quite a bit more than the last, so maybe that could be affecting at least my amp, as it has been known to make strange popping sounds from microphonic tubes and the like on rickety stages.
I would love to get an electrician's opinion on things, but I'm not up what would surely be hundreds just to have it inspected.
What I'm kind of thinking now is getting a Furman Power Conditioner of some kind and then trying the amps again. I can't really afford the like $500 ones that supposedly regulate the amount of voltage to exactly 120v. But, do the $100~ ones do anything? At this point while voltage regulation and all that stuff that might fix the problem would be nice, I just want to be able to plug my amp in and feel safe that if the conditions in the wall stay as they are, my, or anybody else's amps won't be damaged.
What do you guys think?
scottish
WeirdScienceologist
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
I think, that since your friends amp got screwed up out of all of this you should be paying the bench fee to get his inspected. IIRC, they were both mesa's so hopefully its the same problem (potentially what glassman said). This way, your friends amp gets fixed and you have a definitive answer to what the problem is.
I strongly suggest you take your friends amp to a mesa take, get a diagnosis and then decide if its worthwhile investing in whatever you need to solve the problem.
I think, that since your friends amp got screwed up out of all of this you should be paying the bench fee to get his inspected. IIRC, they were both mesa's so hopefully its the same problem (potentially what glassman said). This way, your friends amp gets fixed and you have a definitive answer to what the problem is.
I strongly suggest you take your friends amp to a mesa take, get a diagnosis and then decide if its worthwhile investing in whatever you need to solve the problem.
StillLearnin'
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
A long time ago, we used to practice in a storage facility. I had the same exact problems and it was due to the wiring in the place. They had used *very* thin gauge wire for the runs and the particular slot we were in was at the end of the building and the farthest from the breaker panel. You could hook up a tester and under no load the outlets read the proper voltage. Under load, we'd see the voltage dip down below 100V - almost to 90V. It would get worse as time went on - in our case it was after about 30 minutes before things got real wacky. We solved our problem by moving to a different location.
I use an auto transformer to power my guitar rig when we play out - anything between 85 and 140 V gets clamped to 120. It's the best thing I've done - plus it isolates the ground and keeps the shock potential from mics to a minimum. Crappy clubs have crappy power...
A long time ago, we used to practice in a storage facility. I had the same exact problems and it was due to the wiring in the place. They had used *very* thin gauge wire for the runs and the particular slot we were in was at the end of the building and the farthest from the breaker panel. You could hook up a tester and under no load the outlets read the proper voltage. Under load, we'd see the voltage dip down below 100V - almost to 90V. It would get worse as time went on - in our case it was after about 30 minutes before things got real wacky. We solved our problem by moving to a different location.
I use an auto transformer to power my guitar rig when we play out - anything between 85 and 140 V gets clamped to 120. It's the best thing I've done - plus it isolates the ground and keeps the shock potential from mics to a minimum. Crappy clubs have crappy power...
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BigDreamer
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
What are you referring to? I mean, I still think the power is the main issue here.
Well I definitely am going to make sure my friend has a working amp as soon as I can. When I have time I'm gonna first try a major session of swapping in and out the preamp tubes to see if that solves it. Then try new power tubes. Then we might need to take steps to find a tech, though they are few and far between around here. Also note: his amp has been slowly getting louder, and he says it isn't far off now from where it should be volume-wise, but there is still no gain.
StillLearnin', that's interesting. I'm wondering what our voltages would read under a full load...
What are you referring to? I mean, I still think the power is the main issue here.
Well I definitely am going to make sure my friend has a working amp as soon as I can. When I have time I'm gonna first try a major session of swapping in and out the preamp tubes to see if that solves it. Then try new power tubes. Then we might need to take steps to find a tech, though they are few and far between around here. Also note: his amp has been slowly getting louder, and he says it isn't far off now from where it should be volume-wise, but there is still no gain.
StillLearnin', that's interesting. I'm wondering what our voltages would read under a full load...
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Just bumping.
There's your load test right there.
Just bumping.
There's your load test right there.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Got a guy in the north end of Seattle/Lynnwood/Edmonds. Go see Rick Erickson, and I think the store is called Aviator Music, on HWY 99. He's worked on my stuff for years, and he's very knowledgeable.
Your problem to me sounds more like too high voltage, rather than too low.
Good luck!
Bill
Got a guy in the north end of Seattle/Lynnwood/Edmonds. Go see Rick Erickson, and I think the store is called Aviator Music, on HWY 99. He's worked on my stuff for years, and he's very knowledgeable.
Your problem to me sounds more like too high voltage, rather than too low.
Good luck!
Bill
Ascension
Well-known member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
I suspect power issues also. What I think may be happening will likely only fully show up when everything is really pumping and drawing current. I have seen this happen when playing in older Churches a lot. When the full band is really humping and drawing power and then the AC kicks in the system can't handle the load and the voltage drops. You wind up with low voltage/low current and that will instantly kill the tone of a tube amp and can damage your gear. I now use a small relatively inexpensive APS unit with battery backup to power my amp and effects rig and it has helped a LOT.
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BigDreamer
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Nice, I think I'll look into that guy. Ya, too high a voltage would line up with the readings I took.
Still wondering though: will the lower end Furman's protect my amp, at least for diagnostic purposes?
Nice, I think I'll look into that guy. Ya, too high a voltage would line up with the readings I took.
Still wondering though: will the lower end Furman's protect my amp, at least for diagnostic purposes?
glassman
Electron Herder
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
No. They will only give you spike and RF protection. You have to go to thier top shelf stuff to get voltage stabilization.
Before you start to add gizmos to correct a problem, you need to know what the problem is. Measure your voltage under load. PLEASE use my suggestion of using a hair dryer for the load (post #16 in this thread)...that way you won't have two broken amps to drag into your local tech.
No. They will only give you spike and RF protection. You have to go to thier top shelf stuff to get voltage stabilization.
Before you start to add gizmos to correct a problem, you need to know what the problem is. Measure your voltage under load. PLEASE use my suggestion of using a hair dryer for the load (post #16 in this thread)...that way you won't have two broken amps to drag into your local tech.
J Moose
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
I think you should find a new place to rehearse.
Barring that... since the voltage seems to be abnormally high, if the place was rented to you as a "usable band practice space" then you might have a case with the landlord about getting the wiring fixed... and it would be in his best interest since this could be a potential fire/death hazard.
Having said that, its probably easier to find a new place to rehearse.
The lightweight $100 "power conditioners" really aren't much more then rackmounted surge strips.
Real power conditioning costs real money and carries real weight. Transformers aren't cheap. Nor are they anything you can easily lift with one hand... and it sounds like that's what you need in this case to protect the gear.
Upot - I'm not sure I really need to "prove" anything, nor do I have the time to go digging 'round the interknot for stuff to make you happy. Go read a couple books on tube amp maintenance... talk to some great techs. Find out what those little striped doohickeys & jellybean things inside the amp actually do when they work... peace.
I think you should find a new place to rehearse.
Barring that... since the voltage seems to be abnormally high, if the place was rented to you as a "usable band practice space" then you might have a case with the landlord about getting the wiring fixed... and it would be in his best interest since this could be a potential fire/death hazard.
Having said that, its probably easier to find a new place to rehearse.
The lightweight $100 "power conditioners" really aren't much more then rackmounted surge strips.
Real power conditioning costs real money and carries real weight. Transformers aren't cheap. Nor are they anything you can easily lift with one hand... and it sounds like that's what you need in this case to protect the gear.
Upot - I'm not sure I really need to "prove" anything, nor do I have the time to go digging 'round the interknot for stuff to make you happy. Go read a couple books on tube amp maintenance... talk to some great techs. Find out what those little striped doohickeys & jellybean things inside the amp actually do when they work... peace.
BigDreamer
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Ok, well good to know about the conditioners.
I think I'm gonna have to talk to the manager (who is a really cool young guy, so hopefully he'll be helpful) mainly because before we found this place we checked literally every storage facility (which outside of maybe knowing somebody with a spare warehouse that he'd let us use is our only option when it comes to rehearsal spaces) and this is the only one that allows bands anymore. And there are lots of other bands in this facility, and I've talked with one of them. Though they'd had one amp "die" they didn't mention what the cause was. But, if so many bands are in the facility, it tells me that facility-wide power issues must not be too severe.
Ok, well good to know about the conditioners.
I think I'm gonna have to talk to the manager (who is a really cool young guy, so hopefully he'll be helpful) mainly because before we found this place we checked literally every storage facility (which outside of maybe knowing somebody with a spare warehouse that he'd let us use is our only option when it comes to rehearsal spaces) and this is the only one that allows bands anymore. And there are lots of other bands in this facility, and I've talked with one of them. Though they'd had one amp "die" they didn't mention what the cause was. But, if so many bands are in the facility, it tells me that facility-wide power issues must not be too severe.
J Moose
New member
Re: Mystery Problem Involving Tube Amps PLEASE HELP!
Ahhh... I was under the impression that you WERE in some random warehouse... but if there's a bunch of bands there... Either way, old buildings have funky power to start with. Add several decades of rats chewing on wires & random repairs/additions done by random people & things get even more random!
Chances are good that the building manager has an electrician on call... I'd tell him about the high voltage & dead amps... Maybe tag up with the other band & get more info from them before approaching the manager. Maybe they'll just move you to another room...
Several years ago my studio was in an old warehouse right around the corner from Giants Stadium... my space was formally the home of General Mopeds & was then a pre-pro space for Dream Theater & the Misfits among others... and there were maybe 30 other bands in the building... and the power was always stable but always funky!
I took over the space when my friend moved his studio to Brooklyn, but he had a really random power problem that drove him nuts for a long time. Had 2-3 different electricians out & none of 'em could trace it down. Even with a 50 amp, $5k Equitech power conditioner he had buzzes & stuff...
It was eventually traced to the freight elevator on the other side of the building... which was on its own panel & feed, but somehow had tied to another circuit, which was tied to another circuit in another part of the building... etc. etc.
Funky old buildings.
You should still get the amps checked out by a tech...
Ahhh... I was under the impression that you WERE in some random warehouse... but if there's a bunch of bands there... Either way, old buildings have funky power to start with. Add several decades of rats chewing on wires & random repairs/additions done by random people & things get even more random!
Chances are good that the building manager has an electrician on call... I'd tell him about the high voltage & dead amps... Maybe tag up with the other band & get more info from them before approaching the manager. Maybe they'll just move you to another room...
Several years ago my studio was in an old warehouse right around the corner from Giants Stadium... my space was formally the home of General Mopeds & was then a pre-pro space for Dream Theater & the Misfits among others... and there were maybe 30 other bands in the building... and the power was always stable but always funky!
I took over the space when my friend moved his studio to Brooklyn, but he had a really random power problem that drove him nuts for a long time. Had 2-3 different electricians out & none of 'em could trace it down. Even with a 50 amp, $5k Equitech power conditioner he had buzzes & stuff...
It was eventually traced to the freight elevator on the other side of the building... which was on its own panel & feed, but somehow had tied to another circuit, which was tied to another circuit in another part of the building... etc. etc.
Funky old buildings.
You should still get the amps checked out by a tech...