Myth busted on capacitors and tone

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Call me Captain Obvious if you like, but it seems to me that all the reasons I've seen in here for people to use different caps (types, not values) are for anything but the difference in sound (perceived or real). Is that ironic to anyone else but me?

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Leo Fender should have heeded this advice when he was worrying about all those technical things too, rumor has it he couldn't even play guitar, he like, didn't practice at all.

Leo Fender was never a musician. He was a radio builder and musicians came to him asking him to help them fix their amplifiers. He soon got into building amps and then guitars. But he never knew how to play. Maybe basic chords given that he was around the instruments his whole life. Fender's lack of musical expertise (as he was an electronics builder at first) also contributed to his dislike of how players used his instruments. I remember reading somewhere that he intended the Strat for rock players; the Telecaster for country and blues; and the Jazzmaster was, unsurprisingly, for jazz. When players used them in other genres as well as the Jazzmaster not taking off in the jazz world and instead finding a home for surf guitarists, he was displeased.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Being a great musician doesn't mean you know jack about designing an instrument and vice versa. I worked for a few years designing fighter jet and helicopter flight training simulators without ever flying a plane. No complaints from the U.S., Canadian, Austalian, or Danish air forces that we worked for . . .

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Call me Captain Obvious if you like, but it seems to me that all the reasons I've seen in here for people to use different caps (types, not values) are for anything but the difference in sound (perceived or real). Is that ironic to anyone else but me?

No.

My current state of mind is that there is a difference.

What I was pointing out is that the difference I hear isn't what people like to hear (hehe), which is that the more expensive and/or larger physical format capacitors are all better, or even different in the same way. I place the super cheap ceramics right in the middle of the spectrum of what I think I hear.

This is all personality driven. I tend to be very careful about dismissing factors (because I don't like them to come bouncing back to me later). For somebody rooted in physics and blind tests I tend to believe in a lot more voodoo than others with the same background.

I am also very concerned that several not audible differences might add up to an audible difference in the end. Thinking about that gets you pretty deep into the gearslutting. But the fact of the matter is that some guitars are just much more rounded instrument that you like a lot better, and you don't have a set of physical measurement to say why.

This, again, is all rooted in real life and background. At work I tend to do useless microoptimizations (hence my username), making computer programs run a bit faster or use a little less memory. You pile up a bunch of such "useless" microoptimizations you end up with measurable savings, and if it runs on enough computers you save a lot of resources, or the user does see an improvement.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

No.

My current state of mind is that there is a difference.

What I was pointing out is that the difference I hear isn't what people like to hear (hehe), which is that the more expensive and/or larger physical format capacitors are all better, or even different in the same way. I place the super cheap ceramics right in the middle of the spectrum of what I think I hear.

This is all personality driven. I tend to be very careful about dismissing factors (because I don't like them to come bouncing back to me later). For somebody rooted in physics and blind tests I tend to believe in a lot more voodoo than others with the same background.

I am also very concerned that several not audible differences might add up to an audible difference in the end. Thinking about that gets you pretty deep into the gearslutting. But the fact of the matter is that some guitars are just much more rounded instrument that you like a lot better, and you don't have a set of physical measurement to say why.

This, again, is all rooted in real life and background. At work I tend to do useless microoptimizations (hence my username), making computer programs run a bit faster or use a little less memory. You pile up a bunch of such "useless" microoptimizations you end up with measurable savings, and if it runs on enough computers you save a lot of resources, or the user does see an improvement.

LOL... present company excluded from my previous statement!

I see your point, and I wasn't making a dig at anyone's opinions. Personally, I have never had much use for a tone control at all. I keep on hearing from other guitarists how using it makes such a difference to them, and I try to keep my mind open to using it, but every time I back it off a little I find that I like it better full on. To me, applying the tone control just makes it a muddy mess. I also know that there are plenty of other guys like me who don't use them. That tells me that the whole thing comes down to personal preference (just like pickups, amps, pedals, woods, etc.) that affect your sound, making it a very subjective topic.

I just wanted to point out that most of the replies to this topic that have mentioned a preference for one type of cap over another cite reasons other than the sound... to me that's kind of funny!

 

[JeffB]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I recently went down this road with some NOS PIO caps when I got my new T tops several months back.

Originally the guitar had stock orange drops and after a pickup swap I goofed up the bridge orange drop. I replaced it with a same value mustard cap from mojotone. There was a slight difference in taper...how the the tone rolled off...the mojotone seemed to roll off highs more progressively.

When my T tops came I got the NOS PIO and installed them. Again while swapping some pickups in and out , I accidentally snapped the PIO on my neck pots and it was too short to work with, so I went out to radio shack and picked up some of the green chicklet cheapos. I won't say cheapos sound worse, but with the 50s Wiring the interaction when using both pickups and messing with volumes and tones changed. The PIO seem to give a different midrange characteristic.

That said, when they are on 10, I cannot tell. On zero...there might be. But where I hear a difference is when both volumes and tones are working in the inbetween setting.

Without 50s wiring, I am not sure * I * would notice a big difference.I tend to have the tone wide open when I have modern wiring in a guitar, simply because I personally feel it sounds worse and not terribly responsive, nor the volume controls.


Moral of the story- too much coffee and soldering irons are murder on caps.

 

[DarkMatter]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I'd like to hear Tonewoods' opinion on this.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I'd like to hear Tonewoods' opinion on this.

I wonder what our beloved banned forum brother is up to these days.

 

[DreX]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Leo Fender was never a musician. He was a radio builder and musicians came to him asking him to help them fix their amplifiers. He soon got into building amps and then guitars. But he never knew how to play. Maybe basic chords given that he was around the instruments his whole life. Fender's lack of musical expertise (as he was an electronics builder at first) also contributed to his dislike of how players used his instruments. I remember reading somewhere that he intended the Strat for rock players; the Telecaster for country and blues; and the Jazzmaster was, unsurprisingly, for jazz. When players used them in other genres as well as the Jazzmaster not taking off in the jazz world and instead finding a home for surf guitarists, he was displeased.

That was actually my point, its dumb to say we should favor practice over technical obsessions since they're ultimately unrelated ambitions. But that's a funny story I wasn't aware of, his not liking the genre misapropriation.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I wonder what our beloved banned forum brother is up to these days.

Probably posting under another ID.

 

[autologic]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I always thought of higher pots being able to handle output better and blend better (gotta love that grammar lol) I notice the "better" pots have a wider range on the volume, but I really don't use the tone knobs (I know, i'm a terrible person.)

Seems to me that many of this posts come down to the argument of a Kia and a Rolls Royce, some see the Kia as the only option because it gets you from A to B while others say if you can afford a Rolls Royce why not get the option with better handling, more comfortable drive, super nice interior, etc...

I don't think its a black and white issue of cheap pots are just as good/there's no difference...

Seems to me its more like comparing two different cars that are EXACTLY the same in specs, same weight, same engine, same suspension and drivetrain, but one looks a bit cooler and all the people online tell you its AWESOME, and runs OH SO MUCH BETTER, but it costs about 100,000 and the other car cost 10,000. These are the exact same cars, but some people feel the need to impress everyone, so they buy the expensive one, and they continue the cycle of telling everyone how, through some magic, its faster and cooler and just a million times better.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Seems to me its more like comparing two different cars that are EXACTLY the same in specs, same weight, same engine, same suspension and drivetrain, but one looks a bit cooler and all the people online tell you its AWESOME, and runs OH SO MUCH BETTER, but it costs about 100,000 and the other car cost 10,000. These are the exact same cars, but some people feel the need to impress everyone, so they buy the expensive one, and they continue the cycle of telling everyone how, through some magic, its faster and cooler and just a million times better.

In practice you will find that a lot of cars with identical specs as you list them drive very differently.

 

[MrTondo]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

When the cap-debate comes up I always have to google a bit and then arrive at this website. That article and the articles it links to have pretty much done all kinds of tests on capacitors. Stuff like measuring distortion, impedance etc. I always find it a pretty good read. It also explains a bit why capacitors could sound/work differently and why you would or would not hear it.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

When the cap-debate comes up I always have to google a bit and then arrive at this website. That article and the articles it links to have pretty much done all kinds of tests on capacitors. Stuff like measuring distortion, impedance etc. I always find it a pretty good read. It also explains a bit why capacitors could sound/work differently and why you would or would not hear it.

Woah. Nice.

I didn't even consider mechanical effects due to some capacitors also acting as piezos. Although it is of course "obvious" (now, duh!) that mechanically messing with something that has the plates separated by something soft will induce some voltage on its own.

You bastard, now I'm up to hours and weeks of work. Thanks a lot

 

[DreX]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

That should be easy to test; wire a ceramic capacitor to a guitar cable with alligator clips, then tape it to the bridge of the guitar (or maybe near the heel of the neck for different frequency emphasis) and see if you hear anything come out of the amp.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

That should be easy to test; wire a ceramic capacitor to a guitar cable with alligator clips, then tape it to the bridge of the guitar (or maybe near the heel of the neck for different frequency emphasis) and see if you hear anything come out of the amp.

I don't think it's a full-on piezoelectric effect in the sense that it's can be used as a transducer. However, it seems, from that article, that the piezoelectric effect does change the properties of the capacitor while it's in use, and different types of caps have different levels of the piezoelectric effect.

Sent from my Moto X 2014 using Tapatalk

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I think it could be both. This is getting very ugly/interesting.

I am just glad that I never dismissed capacitor changes as a factor in sound (and I don't care whether me hearing a difference was just in my head or not ).