N/OS preamp tubes FTW

[JeffB]

In a random act of kindness Forum Bro Twilight Odyssey (Ben] sent me a handful of old stock UK Mullard ECC83s, and some NOS 5751s (Jan]. 50/60s era tubes.

I have not messed with old old tubes in many moons...20 years. Jeebus. Talk about an ear opener. First of all, the build quality is night and day. The glass, the pins, such a huge difference.

Soundwise, there is no comparison to the modern junk (some , rather well regarded today) pre-amp tubes I own. My Tubemeister has gone from "need to sell" to getting a second lease on its life AFAIC. The amp was too brittle and thin with my preferred speaker, and was alot of gain,without much sustain. Totally overhauled with a mullard inV1, and green label 5751 in V2. The tone controls on amp and guitar are far more responsive, and the gain, while lower, is now not a lot of inarticulate grainy mess, even full up. Much warmer, fuller,sweeter. Amazing transformation. I can actually use the treble control. Before it was either off or at 9oclock at most (depending on speaker). Now I can run it at noon, with my 12m, or a bit more with the 12H, and it sounds awesome on tge crunch channel witheither...like a lowwattage cross between an old DR103, and a old 1987.

The Class5 is also improved, but not so dramatically. It is more punchy, louder, and warmer, with more usable gain, but it still suffers from an inherent buzzy tone. I think mods would be in order to get it to the level.of warmth and smoothness of the (new, improved) TM18.

Awesome stuff. Wish I had gone this route a year ago instead of wasting money and time on new tubes and other nonsense..

Thanks much Ben! You rock,Bro!

 

[jimijames]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

The NOS JAN 5751s that I got a few years back are the best sounding preamp tubes I've ever come across. Modern tubes are great and all, but IMO old military spec tubes > everything else, if you can get them.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

Use em in good health. Looking forward to hearing your continued exploits!

 

[JeffB]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

So I took some pics of these in comparison to new tubes

First up is a block of New production tubes- a Marshall branded Shugang B, JJECC83S,12ax7b Shugang,Svetlana 12ax7, and the current Mullard from New Sensor (Mullard, Tung-Sol, etc.)View attachment 53278

Next we have some Mullard on Mullard action (real deal with yellow label on left, new crap..err..new one on right)
View attachment 53279
View attachment 53280
View attachment 53281


And we have some 5751s. Two NOS Jan/Sylvania whatevers @ left and middle, and a Groove Tubes ST-5751 on the right (if you cannot tell, the GrooveTube is much larger diameter)
View attachment 53282
View attachment 53283


I am still floored every time I plug into my TM18. It is like I have a completely new amp, and now I can enjoy using my fave Speaker with it (G12m-in this case, WGS Green Beret), instead of using a speaker that made it sound most tolerable. Lower gain, clean, High gain (now I can enjoy that too) whatever. Each of my guitars' natural personality is now completely evident/present regardless of gain level. My 335 sounds very different than my Les Paul, even with the same bridge pickups, strings, pup height, etc.

On an interesting note, the Class 5, while certainly showing improvement, did not respond as drastically with the old tubes, as the Tubemeister did.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

It's interesting that some amps really respond to good old tubes. Some sound about the same, regardless, and some amps just sound better the hotter they are.

I think the best sounding pre tube I've ever found was a NOS Mazda Belvu. It could be a Telefunken made in France by Mazda. That tube made my Matchless Chieftain sound as good as possible.

I put all NOS Mullard ECC83's and new Tungsol 6550's in my 100W JCM800 212 combo. It also sounds as good as that model can sound.

My Bogner XTC, Egnater Vengeance, Jubilee, and Orange TT are far less picky about pre tubes.
In those, I just install EH, Tungsol, or the best Chinese Ruby's.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

I was thinking something similar, how the Class 5 seems impervious to the influence of older valves.
One would think that an old Mullard would be a slam dunk in a Marshall!
I always loved OS Mullards in my Marshalls and Splawn, or Siemens if I could find them.
My EAST and MESA amps are either indifferent or dislike 'em.
The VOX loooves old valves!
I love the Champ so much as is that I've not tried doing any swapping at all yet.
Bumbox is like the Marshalls -- loves old Mullards.

 

[JeffB]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

some amps just sound better the hotter they are.

That is the Class5. These days I give it an hour at least to get hot before I play.

In general, I think EL84s sound awful unless they are screaming hot.

 

[JeffB]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

Yeah, the Class5 seems to have a low ceiling for improvement..speakers are the big key. Tubes to a minor extent.. no matter what, she's a buzzy brit!

 

[crguti]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

how does these small differences in tone sound when you play live?

 

[JeffB]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

If thats a jab, it is a poor one. However the difference is not small by any means in the tubemeister. I have no investment in these, so I have no reason to BS anyone about it or justify a purchase (unlike a lot of posts around here).


How many NOS tubes have YOU tried in your live shows?


That said, I do have an offer to play with a local hard rock band (i.e. old guys like myself) who have need. If I can swing the practice schedule, I will let you know for sure ina few weeks at a Memorial Day gig.

 

[Surgeon]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

Guess I'm in a good mood 'cause I didn't read it as a jab (could be wrong though).

It seems like a legitimate question to ask since I've often realized that many changes I heard as very good while playing alone just vanished when playing with other folks...

So, if I promise this isn't a jab: do you hear it when playing with a band as well?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

I am probably wrong, but if we cannot overreact for miscommunications on the Internet, what good is it?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

I have a Mullard 10M which is the holy grail for me. There are actually some current production tubes that come very close it in tone and response. The ones that came closest to my 10M Mullard tone in my Marshall and a couple other amps were, in order:

TAD 12AX7A-C Selected
Voshkod 12AX7VKA
Ruby 12AX7A-C5 HG
Groove Tubes GT 12AX7-C

FWIW - here's one company's comparison of current tube characteristics. Obviously, each of us has to try them with our own equipment and choose using our own ears.
http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corner/12ax7_comparison_of_current_made_tubes

 

[JeffB]

Re: N/OS preamp tubes FTW

We shall see.

That said, even when I was younger and gigging my tone was for me.and frankly, I play for me too. I was not concerned with making money, I play cos I love to play. The audience doesnt care comment is acop-out, usually from those justifying their own choices (whether they wish to admit it or not). If the audience was the big concern when it came to my tone, then I would not bother with spending more than $100 bucks on a guitar, never worry about aftermarket pickups, and would be using a POD.The only thing I ever worried about was did something fit in the mix, and was it unoffensive to the audience. That is all they care about,.and they do not even know it. Otherwise they are there to hear you PLAY(well, hopefully). I did not then, nor would I now, give a crap about whether the audience members hear in my tone (again, as long as it fits, and is not killing ears).

:shrug:

As for the particulars, I do not think I would hear the difference in a band sitch with the Marshall, at all. In the Tubemeister, absolutely cos the difference is huge. I was ready to sell the amp cos I could never wrestle a tone out of it that I liked for more than 15 minutes.