Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
- Thread starter Chistopher
- Start date
Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Ha ha! Thanks
Both the HB112b and the Duncan/Ibanez use a standard thickness Ceramic magnet in their stock form, which makes them quite a bit different than the Holdsworth...noticeably brighter and stiffer.
Changing the hex poles in the second coil to fillister screws to match the first coil along with replacing the magnet with an A5 would theoretically get them much closer to the Holdsworth's sound and feel.
The core wind of most of the Duncan Designed bridge models (HB-102b, HB-103b, HB-108b, etc) are the same and based on the USA JB/Distortion/Invader family of winds, which are all very similar (many believe the same).
$40 shipped for the HB-112 and $30 shipped for the Duncan/Ibanez version. The HB112 is brand new, the Ibanez is used, but in good shape.
Ha ha! Thanks
Both the HB112b and the Duncan/Ibanez use a standard thickness Ceramic magnet in their stock form, which makes them quite a bit different than the Holdsworth...noticeably brighter and stiffer.
Changing the hex poles in the second coil to fillister screws to match the first coil along with replacing the magnet with an A5 would theoretically get them much closer to the Holdsworth's sound and feel.
The core wind of most of the Duncan Designed bridge models (HB-102b, HB-103b, HB-108b, etc) are the same and based on the USA JB/Distortion/Invader family of winds, which are all very similar (many believe the same).
$40 shipped for the HB-112 and $30 shipped for the Duncan/Ibanez version. The HB112 is brand new, the Ibanez is used, but in good shape.
gregory
New member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Right, I've had the ceramic out of mine for a while now so that didn't come to mind. Funny though: the magnet was the first thing I noticed when I first played my SZ, since I'd mostly been using A5s at the time including an EMG 81 from the '80s.
*If* the composition of the allen screws is the same as the slotted screws (technically, both have fillilster heads), then I don't imagine swapping them out for slotted fillisters will make any noticeable difference. I'd put my money on the wind having the greatest impact (after a magnet swap, of course).
Right, I've had the ceramic out of mine for a while now so that didn't come to mind. Funny though: the magnet was the first thing I noticed when I first played my SZ, since I'd mostly been using A5s at the time including an EMG 81 from the '80s.
*If* the composition of the allen screws is the same as the slotted screws (technically, both have fillilster heads), then I don't imagine swapping them out for slotted fillisters will make any noticeable difference. I'd put my money on the wind having the greatest impact (after a magnet swap, of course).
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
The difference in the screws is the length. Hex screws are shorter which influences the inductance of the pickup. This makes them slightly brighter than screws.
A Full Shred is the same wind and magnet as a Custom 5. The only difference is the hex screws. I've tried a Full Shred with 1" long hex screws and it went from being great in the neck to being useless. I think the actual head of the screw makes less difference than length, which makes less difference than compositon.
The difference in the screws is the length. Hex screws are shorter which influences the inductance of the pickup. This makes them slightly brighter than screws.
A Full Shred is the same wind and magnet as a Custom 5. The only difference is the hex screws. I've tried a Full Shred with 1" long hex screws and it went from being great in the neck to being useless. I think the actual head of the screw makes less difference than length, which makes less difference than compositon.
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
I was mainly saying that to clarify that I don't think head shapes make a difference (except maybe the Invader ones) and explaining the rest of it for people who actually read to the third page of threads like this.
I was mainly saying that to clarify that I don't think head shapes make a difference (except maybe the Invader ones) and explaining the rest of it for people who actually read to the third page of threads like this.
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
I am more apt to think everything makes a difference, but I freely admit that many things that 'make a difference' I don't hear. And then I hear stuff that other people can't. Allan Holdsworth himself stated to me that some of his most mind-blowing playing (to me) was utter crap. Weird world, man.
I am more apt to think everything makes a difference, but I freely admit that many things that 'make a difference' I don't hear. And then I hear stuff that other people can't. Allan Holdsworth himself stated to me that some of his most mind-blowing playing (to me) was utter crap. Weird world, man.
gregory
New member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
For the sake of argument...
Having the slot in the fillister rotated by 2 dregrees relative to the threading between two screws will undoubtedly not spread the magnetic field exactly the same way.
...but will that result in an audible difference?
For the sake of argument...
Having the slot in the fillister rotated by 2 dregrees relative to the threading between two screws will undoubtedly not spread the magnetic field exactly the same way.
...but will that result in an audible difference?
metalchurch79
New member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
3rd pages are generally when sh!t gets real for most threads, so I personally enjoy reading some of them out to the end..
What pickup did you ultimately decide to go with?
3rd pages are generally when sh!t gets real for most threads, so I personally enjoy reading some of them out to the end..
What pickup did you ultimately decide to go with?
Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
The head shape does changes the character of the resulting magnetic field around each pole piece. Also, I believe the standard slotted screws and the hex poles are a slightly different alloy, plus there's any additional plating(s) to contend with.
Does pole piece length yield a greater effect than head shape? Good question!
I have two identical, brand new HB112's. I'm half tempted to swap the poles between them so that one has ALL slotted screws (like the Holdsworth) and the other has ALL hex screws (like a Full Shred) just to compare...ha ha!
In another, completely subjective comparison I did last night, it seemed that the hex coils on these pickups yield a stronger field directly above the poles, while the slotted screws appeared to cast a slightly broader field around them, but, again, it was a subjective observation done out of curiousity.
The head shape does changes the character of the resulting magnetic field around each pole piece. Also, I believe the standard slotted screws and the hex poles are a slightly different alloy, plus there's any additional plating(s) to contend with.
Does pole piece length yield a greater effect than head shape? Good question!
I have two identical, brand new HB112's. I'm half tempted to swap the poles between them so that one has ALL slotted screws (like the Holdsworth) and the other has ALL hex screws (like a Full Shred) just to compare...ha ha!
In another, completely subjective comparison I did last night, it seemed that the hex coils on these pickups yield a stronger field directly above the poles, while the slotted screws appeared to cast a slightly broader field around them, but, again, it was a subjective observation done out of curiousity.
gregory
New member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Slightly painful read, but still:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?318455-Slotted-poles-vs-hex-poles
I don't know if Frank was talking about allens with large caps or fillisters, and his thrust was more about length than anything, but if he said he conducted an objective test which revealed a clear result, I believe him.
Still, I'd be surprised if an extra 1k of wind wouldn't make a far greater difference (getting back to a CS Holdsworth vs. an A5-loaded Duncan/Ibanez HB-103B).
In terms of how close a DD HB-112 is to a Duncan/Ibanez HB-103B, I wouldn't bet the farm that the screws are of the same composition.
Slightly painful read, but still:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?318455-Slotted-poles-vs-hex-poles
I don't know if Frank was talking about allens with large caps or fillisters, and his thrust was more about length than anything, but if he said he conducted an objective test which revealed a clear result, I believe him.
Still, I'd be surprised if an extra 1k of wind wouldn't make a far greater difference (getting back to a CS Holdsworth vs. an A5-loaded Duncan/Ibanez HB-103B).
In terms of how close a DD HB-112 is to a Duncan/Ibanez HB-103B, I wouldn't bet the farm that the screws are of the same composition.
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Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
We are going with the Jazz Bridge double hex. He needs to send in the request first, payday hasn't come around yet.
We are going with the Jazz Bridge double hex. He needs to send in the request first, payday hasn't come around yet.
Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Hell yeah! Super-solid choice! Very excited to see what your impressions are once you get it!
Hell yeah! Super-solid choice! Very excited to see what your impressions are once you get it!
Masta' C
Well-known member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Agreed...if Frank says the shape of the pole pieces makes a difference, then it makes a difference!
Definitely supports what I've found in my time studying, swapping and tweaking pickup designs.
Naturally, the wind and magnet have the most notable impact.
As for the DD vs the D/Ibz, the biggest difference between those has to do with the HEX pole pieces. Comparing the pickups side by side, the chrome hex poles on the older Duncan/Ibanez are the same length as the slotted poles, while the black hex poles used on the HB112 are actually quite a bit shorter, similar to the Screamin’ Demon, etc., so they are most definitely different screws. Different alloy? Possibly, but no way to tell.
Also, since you mentioned DCR, here are actual readings from some of the pickups I currently have on hand:
Duncan/Ibanez HB103b – 17.2K
HB112b – 16.9K (x2 – both measure the same)
Holdsworth Trembuckers – 17.8K, 18.2K and 18.5K
I have also had both Duncan/Ibanez HB103's that measured slightly lower than 17K and HB112b's from other batches that were just over 17K, so 16.9K to 17.2K is well within tolerance for that wind.
As you can imagine, there are many other differences between the actual Holdsworth model and the DD pickups than DCR alone.
Agreed...if Frank says the shape of the pole pieces makes a difference, then it makes a difference!
Definitely supports what I've found in my time studying, swapping and tweaking pickup designs.
Naturally, the wind and magnet have the most notable impact.
As for the DD vs the D/Ibz, the biggest difference between those has to do with the HEX pole pieces. Comparing the pickups side by side, the chrome hex poles on the older Duncan/Ibanez are the same length as the slotted poles, while the black hex poles used on the HB112 are actually quite a bit shorter, similar to the Screamin’ Demon, etc., so they are most definitely different screws. Different alloy? Possibly, but no way to tell.
Also, since you mentioned DCR, here are actual readings from some of the pickups I currently have on hand:
Duncan/Ibanez HB103b – 17.2K
HB112b – 16.9K (x2 – both measure the same)
Holdsworth Trembuckers – 17.8K, 18.2K and 18.5K
I have also had both Duncan/Ibanez HB103's that measured slightly lower than 17K and HB112b's from other batches that were just over 17K, so 16.9K to 17.2K is well within tolerance for that wind.
As you can imagine, there are many other differences between the actual Holdsworth model and the DD pickups than DCR alone.
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gregory
New member
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
If DD follows the same recipe then DCR can encompass the main difference, Frank's ability to make yummy cookies can account for the rest. That's a mighty big if.
I'm sure the wire gauge and insulation is the same, though, so I wouldn't expect any major differences in voicing.
If DD follows the same recipe then DCR can encompass the main difference, Frank's ability to make yummy cookies can account for the rest. That's a mighty big if.
I'm sure the wire gauge and insulation is the same, though, so I wouldn't expect any major differences in voicing.
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
I wanna see this when you get it. Let us know how it works out, too!
I wanna see this when you get it. Let us know how it works out, too!
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Neck match for Allan Holdsworth?
Good news! He managed to find a double screw Jazz bridge on Ebay, it comes with one row of hex and one row of flathead, a la the Screamin Demon, but that can be fixed rather easily. I'll report back in about 3 weeks because I'll be out of the country for a while. See ya then.
Good news! He managed to find a double screw Jazz bridge on Ebay, it comes with one row of hex and one row of flathead, a la the Screamin Demon, but that can be fixed rather easily. I'll report back in about 3 weeks because I'll be out of the country for a while. See ya then.
