Neck pickup discussion - please drop your thoughts

[Rex_Rocker]

Rather than a recommendation or review or whatever thread, I guess this is more of a broad discussion. I wanted to get you guys' thoughts on the issue.

I remember when I was using actives, I always liked how both pickups sounded in conjuction with each other, especially the Fluence Moderns or the KSE's, but the EMG 81/60 and even the EMG 85 managed to work fine for me.

But I've been thinking... what is my issue with passive neck pickups? I have the problem where I try one that sounds great clean, but then it sounds meh distorted. The Duncan '59 is the perfect example of that for me. Then there are ones where they sound great distorted, but then sound lifeless clean. The Air Norton comes to mind. And all in-betweens seem to be a compromise, which I've never felt with actives.

I haven't tried as many passive neck pickups as I have bridge ones. Maybe that's part of the issue. That being said, I've tried enough to know what I don't like. I don't like neck pickups that are overly attacky. So no Fender-style single coils for me. I like chimey cleans, but not to the point of shrillness. I like full leads, but not to the point of bloated mudiness. I also hate output so low that they won't balance with the bridge pickups that I like. But that also leads to the problem that passives that are too overwound tend to sound a bit dark and meh in the neck.

So... is it a matter of trying out more until I find the one? At this point, I kinda feel I'd just be lumping a lot of money into something that I'm not even sure will pay off in the end. Or am I overly romanticizing actives? Because it's been at least 2 years since I've had them in my guitar, so the memory of how they sound isn't all that fresh. Maybe I should just settle? Like have a guitar with an Air Norton and one with a '59, and be done with it?

What do you guys think? What would you guys do?

Thanks for reading.

 

[beaubrummels]

Sounds like you just prefer higher power pickups with only enough dynamics to get some chime out of them. For passives, you might spend some time experimenting with various bridge models in the neck and see how it goes?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Sounds like you just prefer higher power pickups with only enough dynamics to get some chime out of them. For passives, you might spend some time experimenting with various bridge models in the neck and see how it goes?

As far as really high powered... don't think that's my jam either. I used to think I liked the Duncan Distortion Neck, but I recently tried to match it with a JB, and I found it even duller than the Air Norton. The JB in the neck, for me, is just plain unsable. I've also had the Super 2, and that one was OK-ish, but I don't remember being it very standout either. It almost just felt like a PAF Pro with a ceramic magnet, and I kinda hate the PAF Pro, LOL.

But maybe more of a slightly overwound PAF-ish kinda deal would be interesting. I haven't tried many of those.

 

[Securb]

I love the PGn, WLHn, and the BWn, but I also have bridge pickups in the necks of guitars I love. I have a Bill Lawrence 250 ML in the neck of my Strat with a Dimebucker, which works well. I have a TV Jones Classic + bridge in the neck of my Tele with a Hot Rails. The TV Jones had to be backed way off but once I found the sweet spot that sucker is never coming out of the Tele.

 

[beaubrummels]

As far as really high powered... don't think that's my jam either. I used to think I liked the Duncan Distortion Neck, but I recently tried to match it with a JB, and I found it even duller than the Air Norton. The JB in the neck, for me, is just plain unsable. I've also had the Super 2, and that one was OK-ish, but I don't remember being it very standout either. It almost just felt like a PAF Pro with a ceramic magnet, and I kinda hate the PAF Pro, LOL.

But maybe more of a slightly overwound PAF-ish kinda deal would be interesting. I haven't tried many of those.

I wasn't thinking of a JB or really hot bridge for the neck, but maybe nothing more than the Custom (14k) or 59/Custom, '78 Model, or hotter PAF types like BB3, Whole Lotta Humbucker, Saturday Night Special.

Have you used a Black Winter neck before? It didn't sound so ceramic to me, but it was clear, could do some chime but also take the heat.

 

[playas]

Just a thought. Have you tried an A3 in the neck JB?

Another guess for something you might like is a PG bridge in there.

My thinking being you seem to like middy bridge pups, so maybe what you want for the neck is something also with mids...but higher up in the frequency range
to account for the different positions.

If I'm not mistaken, from previous posts you seem to really hear small differences in pickup location so I expect you're very demanding in perfecting what you're after.

I'm not a big neck humbucker fan but do tend to like them best backed way off to the extent that it wouldn't be unusual to have the pickup ring above the top of the pickup, even with a jb in the bridge and a paf level in the neck.

 

[GuitarStv]

I like the '59 both clean and distorted . . . it's about as good as a regular humbucker gets in the neck as far as I'm concerned (which might invalidate my opinions to you). You might try out a firebird pickup though, for something beefier and a little less attack-y than a single, but a little clearer and less prone to mud than a regular 'bucker.

 

[Teleplayer]

I wonder if some of the neck pickups you previously disliked may sound better or different if you tried them in one of your current LP style guitars. If the guitar tends to be warm, the shrillness from the neck pickup may be less of a problem.

 

[jeremy]

im thinking rails jazz bridge with a ceramic mag might be a sweet pup with a hot bridge pup

 

[Mincer]

You also sound like a great candidate for a Custom Shop pickup. If you talked to MJ or Derek and explained what you like and don't like, they could build exactly what you want (and explain what is possible for them to do).

 

[freefrog]

So... is it a matter of trying out more until I find the one? At this point, I kinda feel I'd just be lumping a lot of money into something that I'm not even sure will pay off in the end. Or am I overly romanticizing actives?

My own subjective experience led me to think that matching between pickups and guitars is crucial: finding "the one" is pretty much what I've tried to do in each of my instruments. None hosts the same models of a same brand nor even a same wiring...

And I don't think that you're "romanticizing" actives: i've not tried Fluence's but I see how the rounded response and tightened bass of EMG Humbuckers can ease the use of both N and B humbuckers.

To avoid to waste money, I'd simultaneously try to be very analytical and to think out of the box - or at least, outside of the usual frame.

EMG's are like rail mini-humbuckers under the hood of full sized ones. So what about some mini-humbucker or even SC sized HB? The last solution can be tried in three possible positions: instead of the North or South coil, or centered in between.

Tighter bass can be obtained from a series capacitor, like in the de-mud mod that Artie has generously shared a while back. Mounting it on a Fender TBX pot would open to various sounds: one can wire the 1M part to enable the de-mud mod @ 10/10 and disable it in center (detent) position of the pot. The 250k part of the TBX is naturally waiting for a regular tone control but as it's a no-load pot, the center position disables it, giving access to maximum brightness.

If a pickup is too bright, put it in parallel with some low value cap. Such components start to be really heard above 1nF. Under 1nF, they just darken the tone in a subtle way by dragging the resonance towards the high mids - and may change the perception of "attack" since they alter the transients by filtering high harmonics.

If a pickup sounds too focused in the high or high mid ranges, decreasing the resistive load is rewarding. This idea is evoked frequently enough in our forum to avoid further developments. Let's just keep in mind that it doesn't require to change pots. Parallel resistors from hot to ground are cheap and easy to try.

Bill Lawrence was hugely relying on external caps and resistors (or even inductors) to shape the sound to his liking. Incidentally, his use of rails instead of screws and slugs was good sounding enough to have been recycled by other brands... ;-)

Also, you know how reshaping the tone of an existing (and"normal") neck humbucker remains largely possible, with the tricks above (series caps, parallel caps / resistors or conversely, no-load tone control) but also with magnet swapping or airing, by using shortened screw poles, by pulling off all of the screw poles or some screws / slugs only, by putting a LOW value cap to ground between coils in order to mimic a Dual-Resonance PU, by mounting the whole thing in parallel with an external inductive load... Non limitative list. There are many ideas to try, there.

When I experiment with such things, I do measure LRC specs, magnetic flux and resonant peaks but I also record in a systematical way the guitar direct to the board, in order to see its response on a frequency analyzer. It has been more than useful IME. YMMV.

Sorry for the long rambling: it's supposed to try to help.


EDIT - another idea would be to try some humbucker mount noiseless P90. Wether they capture the sound of SC's or not, such PU's might help to obtain a tight but warm tone with a certain amount of chime. For that, I'd start with an architecture involving one single row of actual screw poles, like real ones. IOW, a stack or a "sidewinder" with coils perpendicular to the strings. YMMV.

 

[Teleplayer]

I like free frog's thinking. If the pickup is too shrill in the top-end, it could be re-tuned with a parallel capacitor. However it can induce endless tweaking because of the way it interracts with our hearing. When adding a parallel capacitor it can sometimes accentuate the mids so it actually sounds brighter, even though the top-end brightness is reduced. In my case I used parrallel capacitors with value around 68pf, 100pF, or 150pF but never got close to 1nF. Potentially a nerd's paradise.

 

[freefrog]

Yeah, 1nF might seem a bit high for humbuckers and I don't go that far myself with something else than Fender style single coils. That said, guitar heroes of the past used long and/or coily cords whose parasitic capacitance was sometimes much higher than 1nF. I've here a vintage 50' straight cable with a capacitive influence high enough to give a cocked wah tone to any pickup. I can certify that no pickup would sound too shrill or "attacky" through it... and these 50' of old cable would be easy to mimic with a simple 3.9nF cap from hot to ground. ;-)

 

[Teleplayer]

Yeah, 1nF might seem a bit high for humbuckers and I don't go that far myself with something else than Fender style single coils. That said, guitar heroes of the past used long and/or coily cords whose parasitic capacitance was sometimes much higher than 1nF.

I feel that around 100pF ~ 220pF is probably enough to make the neck pickup less shrill and “attacky”. If going too far, the clean tone will suffer.

Changing from a 10’ cable to a 20’ cable would have a bigger effect on the tone. Although the effect on the bridge pickup would be even more significant, so that’s the point of wiring the cap to only the neck P/U.

 

[freefrog]

I feel that around 100pF ~ 220pF is probably enough to make the neck pickup less shrill and “attacky”. If going too far, the clean tone will suffer.

Depends on the pickups: I've paired Filter'Tron's with switchable 3.3nF caps (!) and it made them nicely close to P.A.F. style HB's. ;-)

That said, I understand your feeling. and POV. Actually, 220pF is something that I've used more than once to "tune" bright pickups. Low capacitive values can also reshape the harmonics in various and potentially interesting ways when connected to ground between the coils...

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Thank you all for the replies and recommendations!

The electronic suggestions would be really interesting to give a try. And not as expensive, it seems, as getting a whole new pickup altogether.

I also thought about going completely left field and getting another Phat Cat. It's really different from what I'be been using, and I used to have one in the past and remember liking it a lot.

I'll maybe get some pots, caps, and resistors first to see if I can salvage what I currently have, though.

 

[weepingminotaur]

Black Winter neck, man. Feels like it would check all your neck pup boxes.

 

[Spaghetti Bolo]

Actives have the low lows and high highs chopped out by the preamp.

 

[gimmieinfo]

I find LP's have a propensity to be be muddy in the neck position, but i never felt it was too much low end. I always felt it was a lack of percussive attack which makes the lows "muddy" as many describe it. I'd describe it more like dull. The one pickup so far for me that seems to have been the best in dealing with that has been the pearly gates. Not perfect, but after trying a bunch of pickups in 3 different P's in the last year or so it's easily the best so far. I'd love to try a 59 set in my current LP and eventually might. But as wicked as the PGs sound I just don't think they're going to be as good. I have always been a fan of A5 ore the any other magnet but A2 is great in HB's and A5 may be too tho i haven't tried any really great quality/reputation A5 HBs. Just one, then a couple others that were A2 and i changed the mag to 5.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I find LP's have a propensity to be be muddy in the neck position, but i never felt it was too much low end. I always felt it was a lack of percussive attack which makes the lows "muddy" as many describe it. I'd describe it more like dull.

That's the thing, though. I don't mind that. I HATE too much attack from the neck pickup like the Jazz or the PAF Pro have in any guitar I've had them in. I like smooth neck pickups. If I switch to the neck pickup, I don't want an aggressive attacky sound. I have the bridge for that. I used to have an Ibanez RG570, and I had a DiMarzio Dominion/PAF Pro combo, and I absloutely hated how the neck pickup had much more attack than the bridge pickup in that combo, even if the Dominion was a particularly attacky bridge pickup.