Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Edgecrusher, that may be so. But then you have to ask whether, tonally and feel wise, a guitar that's between $1000-2000 is worth that amount of money. That's a good chunk of a payment toward a car--for a single guitar. This isn't practical in my case where I need a Floyded guitar for every tuning as well as different pickup combinations. I have 12 guitars and I am nowhere near finished. That doesn't count basses.

Bluntly, increasingly, I think the answer as to whether expensive guitars are worth it is no, especially as the quality of imports increases. I have a 70s lawsuit Korean P Bass and the difference between it and my newer Japanese imports is like night and day. Of course, the best thing is to try out guitars on a case by case basis, but I am making a very general argument.

One could say the inverse as well, saying that you feel better because you spent a lot of money on a handmade instrument that makes it intrinsically better, which would be the inverse of the "my partscaster is as good as your custom shop job" argument. I don't blame you. I would want my $2000 guitar to sound like a $2000 guitar and I would feel offended if someone said their $600 guitar sounded as good. But you don't always get what you pay for.

I can't say for sure. But I do think the general trend is that you are getting less for your money when it comes to custom shop guitars as import guitars quality improves.

If import guitars and "partscasters" were really so awful, they wouldn't have displaced a majority of US guitar manufacturing beginning in the 1970s.

Of course, much of it is simply the human ear's inability to tell the difference in nuances in sound, which is what most of this is about. The influential, early records of many bands were made with cheap gear, yet people rave about the tones.

Most of the time, you can't tell what they're playing unless you look at the liner notes.

Would I have a custom shop guitar? Sure. Do I think they're worth the money? Not really--not unless they had a lot of features I would want in them that are difficult to find on one guitar (OFR, variety of wiring options, killswitch, sustainer, piezos, phase switch, MIDI capability--all in one guitar). Most of the reason for this is due to the woodworking required. If a premade, prepainted body were available, I'd do it myself.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Btw, guys, are there any guitars that are solid pieces of wood? This is what I was thinking of, then when Darth Phineas mentioned the neck thru with wings, I remembered that even many neck thrus are not a single solid piece of wood.

When I say neck thru, I generally mean one piece.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Also, let me say that I support American guitar manufacturing. I also support higher wages rather than lowering prices. I'd rather see people earn more than the goods they make cost less.

The relevancy of this to the topic is, when buying an American guitar, you have to know what part of the retail price actually goes to improving the guitar's quality and what amount goes to things like profit margin, healthcare, workers wages, etc. We don't have the most efficient system in that regard.

My concern is simply that most of a $2000 guitar's price is not reflected in the quality of the guitar, but rather the cost of the labor making it.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

My concern in the OP was whether I should seek out neck thru models with OFRs to modify because the myth is (generally) that neck thrus have better tone and tune o matics sound better than Floyds because there is more wood mass at the bridge. That logic in mind, neck thru + OFR seemed like cross purposes because the OFR would water down the tone at the bridge and the thru neck would offset the OFR's treble. It wasn't really over a custom shop vs. import thing.

To the big block guys, I've thought about trying them, but I like a lot of play and smoothness in my FR, almost like a Kahler. I'm worried that the weight and size of the block would affect that.

The helpful posters in this forum have made me realize that bolt ons aren't so bad after all.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Btw, guys, are there any guitars that are solid pieces of wood? This is what I was thinking of, then when Darth Phineas mentioned the neck thru with wings, I remembered that even many neck thrus are not a single solid piece of wood.

When I say neck thru, I generally mean one piece.

One piece for an entire neck through would be too unstable imo. Also Utilizing a scarf joint makes for a stronger neck.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Really you guys can't tell from the pictures? Look again bros

for bolt-ons the fix is 1 minute work, was it a neckthrough/setin?

 

[kramersteen]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

for bolt-ons the fix is 1 minute work, was it a neckthrough/setin?

Pm me i will send you the thread where i found it. If not all good brota

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Edgecrusher, that may be so. But then you have to ask whether, tonally and feel wise, a guitar that's between $1000-2000 is worth that amount of money. That's a good chunk of a payment toward a car--for a single guitar. This isn't practical in my case where I need a Floyded guitar for every tuning as well as different pickup combinations. I have 12 guitars and I am nowhere near finished. That doesn't count basses.

Bluntly, increasingly, I think the answer as to whether expensive guitars are worth it is no, especially as the quality of imports increases. I have a 70s lawsuit Korean P Bass and the difference between it and my newer Japanese imports is like night and day. Of course, the best thing is to try out guitars on a case by case basis, but I am making a very general argument.

One could say the inverse as well, saying that you feel better because you spent a lot of money on a handmade instrument that makes it intrinsically better, which would be the inverse of the "my partscaster is as good as your custom shop job" argument. I don't blame you. I would want my $2000 guitar to sound like a $2000 guitar and I would feel offended if someone said their $600 guitar sounded as good. But you don't always get what you pay for.

I can't say for sure. But I do think the general trend is that you are getting less for your money when it comes to custom shop guitars as import guitars quality improves.

If import guitars and "partscasters" were really so awful, they wouldn't have displaced a majority of US guitar manufacturing beginning in the 1970s.

Of course, much of it is simply the human ear's inability to tell the difference in nuances in sound, which is what most of this is about. The influential, early records of many bands were made with cheap gear, yet people rave about the tones.

Most of the time, you can't tell what they're playing unless you look at the liner notes.

Would I have a custom shop guitar? Sure. Do I think they're worth the money? Not really--not unless they had a lot of features I would want in them that are difficult to find on one guitar (OFR, variety of wiring options, killswitch, sustainer, piezos, phase switch, MIDI capability--all in one guitar). Most of the reason for this is due to the woodworking required. If a premade, prepainted body were available, I'd do it myself.

I dont get your problem then. Custom guitars arent for you... Then why worry about it? Saying "Would I have a custom shop guitar? Sure. Do I think they're worth the money? Not really" is saying I want something for nothing. You want fancy options that would require a custom shop but you dont want to pay the price tag. And its cool everyone has a budget but its silly to try to and justify your spending habits this way. If something works for you thats great why worry about it.

Where your running into problems is trying to impose these preconceived ideas of better onto things. Pay close attention I never said custom shop was better I said "Its not the same" Only you can decide for yourself what is better.

Neckthrough or bolt on isnt better or worse for tone its just different. Tune o matics dont sound better than floyds they sound different you have to decide for you which is better. You cannot even definitively say a neck through sound like XXXXX because of all the different possibilities in construction. Same with bolt ons and set necks.

The notion that a floyd has more treble than a tunomatic is a perception not a truth. Ive had bright and dark guitars with both bridges. If you need a floyd seek out a guitar with a floyd that suits your purposes but dont automatically rule out guitars based only on their neck construction method.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

"I dont get your problem then. Custom guitars arent for you... Then why worry about it?"

The problem is a lot of desired features are still considered "custom" features complete with price premium, even though the price attached to them still isn't really worth it when you consider the guitar in a utilitarian, and not an artistic, sense. Since most people will not be able to hear nuances in the guitars, paying so much money for small variations in tone becomes self defeating. The beauty of a guitar's craftsmanship or the comfort of its playability may have nothing to do with its tone.

The point is to specifically identify what factors make the most impact on tone and then to find the cheapest methods for getting those factors into a guitar with the least amount of trial and error possible.

"Do I think they're worth the money? Not really" is saying I want something for nothing."

It's actually saying, "I'm willing to pay more for better tone if you can prove to me that the amount I'm investing produces that amount in results." I don't think it does, generally.

I'm willing to pay for something if I am convinced that it will improve the tone vastly for a given price. But I am not convinced that throwing thousands of dollars at a custom shop is going to accomplish that due to branding and the prestige aspect of custom jobs's affect on price. It may, however, make cork sniffers feel better about their gear.

Also, much of GAS is because you don't know what will work for something until you do a lot of trial and error. So even if I'm planning on building an axe, I really won't know 100% if what I have is what I want until I try out a guitar of every construction/electronics/wood configuration. For most people, that's impossible. Only big time pros planning endorsements get multiple test jobs.

The money invested has to improve the tone to a degree that even an untrained listener could tell the difference and say, "Man, this is $2000 worth of tone improvement right there!" Unfortunately, rarely is this the case, because even cheap gear is improving.

In fact, you could say the entire music industry is anti audiophile at the moment. Things like SACD and DVD audio and DSD audio have not taken off like manufacturers have hoped, even as bandwidth and hard drive capacity have increased. I still insist upon my music in wav form, but it is very hard to find without ripping it directly from the disc. 24 bit audio upscaling from 16 doesn't seem to have taken off either.

This meanders a bit off topic.

But my point is you seem to think that a custom axe is worth the investment. I am not convinced, not at the prices currently charged, especially when a lot of the work (like nice pickups and hardware) could be put on quite easily for just a few hours labor.

When it comes to paint and wood, etc., though, I understand, because said tools are expensive.

But I would very much like to see a neck thru OFR with good pickups retail for less than $1000.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

The money invested has to improve the tone to a degree that even an untrained listener could tell the difference and say, "Man, this is $2000 worth of tone improvement right there!" Unfortunately, rarely is this the case, because even cheap gear is improving.

Being able to tell the difference yourself isn't enough?

But my point is you seem to think that a custom axe is worth the investment. I am not convinced, not at the prices currently charged, especially when a lot of the work (like nice pickups and hardware) could be put on quite easily for just a few hours labor.

How much of the labor involved in building a custom guitar do you think is accounted for by installing the pickups and hardware?

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

It might be. But I'd hate to think that the improvement would be marginal and I'd hate having spent the money.

A good example. Everybody was telling me how awesome Alnico VIII magnets are. I tried an Alt 8 and it struck me as a slightly less scratchy Distortion. I'm glad the investment wasn't more than it was.

And yes, I understand that pickups can be returned, but I also like saving a bit by getting stuff used.

On the contrary, I tried a Full Shred set and love it, a model that isn't terribly popular.

While paying for a custom guitar might have been a huge improvement in the 70s and 80s, I'm not sure it's worth it now.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

The money invested has to improve the tone to a degree that even an untrained listener could tell the difference and say, "Man, this is $2000 worth of tone improvement right there!" Unfortunately, rarely is this the case, because even cheap gear is improving.

Yeah sorry dude this just isnt the case. Never has been never will be. No one has ever said a 500 dollar guitar has twice the tone of a 250 dollar guitar. Tone and better cannot be incrementally measured according to a dollar value. How much is tone worth? What? This is all stuff you have to decide for yourself what the value is. Ive consistently said that expensive guitars were "not the same" Ive never said better never said how much just that it isnt the same. You do get something for that money but you have to decide if its worth it.

I can tell you this though. Their is much more to a guitar than just the sound. I dont just listen to it, I play it, I interact with it. How the guitar looks and feels when it interacts with me is very important. Its a tool that has to do a very particular job.

I appreciate very much when I feel the back of the neck and I know some craftsman spent 4 hours carving that neck. Then another 2 sanding it, that he rubbed by hand the finish into it. Its the artistry. It was crafted by hand by someone who gave a crap that he was building a guitar. For that feeling I am willing to pay a lot. You have to decide for yourself how much you would pay for it.

When it comes to paint and wood, etc., though, I understand, because said tools are expensive.

But I would very much like to see a neck thru OFR with good pickups retail for less than $1000.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/jackson-slx-soloist-x-series-electric-guitar

No its not an OFR and its duncan designed pickups but its all still quality stuff and far under your 1000 dollar mark

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Definitely a personal decision based on what a person's priorities are, and on what they want to spend. Or are comfortable spending. Or can spend. Whatever semantics are less inflammatory.

I once had an idea for a Custom Shop Jackson. It was a lot of money. After thinking about it, I thought that, since I'd never even owned one of their high-end production models, maybe I should check those out to see what I thought. Over the course of a year or so I played some Soloists, Rhoads, a Dinky, and eventually bought an SL2HT. Fantastic guitar; I love the thing.

I still haven't moved forward on the custom model, though. I'd grown lukewarm on the idea that I was thinking about, and I also realized how many guitars already out there (including the new-at-the-time Charvels) would get me something close. Plus, I realized I'd probably rather have two USA Selects, or a great amp or two, at this point in my life. I haven't entirely ruled out the custom, but that's a thought for later on, someday. Maybe. I've never seen a Jackson Custom in person, to know how the quality compares to the production models made in Ontario (California). I'm happy enough with the quality I've seen in the USA Selects (except for a weird bridge alignment I saw on an SL1 once) that I wouldn't really be motivated by the idea of better quality so much as getting something that was exactly what I wanted. That does make the law of diminishing returns steeper for me, since I don't feel I have to go custom to get the quality I want.

I don't think you'd necessarily have to try out every single possible combination of everything that goes into a guitar to know what you'd want. You can rule out certain things and gravitate towards others by trying out guitars in stores, and focusing on the things you don't expect to be changing yourself -- scale length, neck angle, body shape, neck profile, fretboard radius, maybe control positions, etc. This can help with any guitar purchase, not just for those thinking of a custom job.

I think the main thing is to consider what a certain purchase would gain you over something else. There are neck-through/Floyd models at lower price points now, from Schecter, Jackson, LTD. They probably use the Korean-made Floyd that's very close to the OFR. Some of the guys here have experience with that trem. As far as neck-through and a floating Floyd, I think the steel construction of an OFR (at least the German ones I have) gives the bridge a nice bite and snap that helps offset what I perceive as a slow attack on a neck-through. I think it can be a great combination, and it's one of my favorites.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

I agree with Edgecrusher on appreciating craftsmanship. If only most people appreciated craftsmanship instead of cost, but a lot of artistry in many fields has been lost in order to save money and up productivity.

A good example might be having the ears of Mutt Lange in the 1980s, having to know signal flow, compression ratios, etc., vs. using software like EZ Mix now. I almost felt sick at how quick it was to make good mixes. The downside is, everything sounds the same (good) and the value of each song goes down as a result due to oversupply of music.

Also, regarding Pigbacon, if I knew exactly what I wanted, I could probably save money by putting everything I need into one guitar. Retuning would be annoying, but I could manage.

Instead I choose to spread myself a bit thin in order to try out different things and so I can play the same riff in different tunings to see what works.

Surprisingly, my heaviest sounding guitar is a $200 Indian Dinky reverse with a string thru Floyd and EMG SA/S/81 with EXG mid scooper. The bridge is absolute crap but the sound it makes is super chunky. You never know.

Also keep in mind that the entire point of mass produced imports beginning in the early 90s was so that people could supposedly have Jackson San Dimas quality at an affordable price. Most of the big name manufacturers now all started as custom shops in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Also keep in mind that the entire point of mass produced imports beginning in the early 90s was so that people could supposedly have Jackson San Dimas quality at an affordable price. Most of the big name manufacturers now all started as custom shops in the 70s and 80s.

I'm familiar with the basic history of Charvel and Jackson. (Why is this something I should keep in mind?) The "supposedly" part, I would agree with, as the quality of the imports has varied pretty wildly (based on reputation and on a little of my own experience) from pretty much rivaling or equaling their contemporary USA counterparts, to just not really distinguishing themselves from competitive brands at other times and other price points. In recent years I've seen the pitch in print ads, something like "Now you can have a guitar from the same team that designs the (whatever) for a lot less money..." Like most companies that offer tiered product lines, the message is generally carefully crafted to imply a certain meted-out portion of the experience, while leaving enough on the table for higher-up ranges. I haven't played any of the great imports of the past that people seem to regard so highly; I imagine most players who own them don't part with them easily. What I think about the different ranges I have played is that you do tend to get a better guitar as you move up.

Surprisingly, my heaviest sounding guitar is a $200 Indian Dinky reverse with a string thru Floyd and EMG SA/S/81 with EXG mid scooper. The bridge is absolute crap but the sound it makes is super chunky. You never know.

My heaviest (as in the most Slayer-sounding) guitar is the Music-Yo! Kramer, a neck-through with a Floyd-licensed floating bridge, that I paid $125 for (before the EMG 85/81 and the active concentric bass/treble control). It's not a subtle-sounding guitar; it's a sledgehammer for grinding out riffs.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

"Why is this something I should keep in mind? The "supposedly" part, I would agree with, as the quality of the imports has varied pretty wildly (based on reputation and on a little of my own experience) from pretty much rivaling or equaling their contemporary USA counterparts, to just not really distinguishing themselves from competitive brands at other times and other price points. In recent years I've seen the pitch in print ads, something like "Now you can have a guitar from the same team that designs the (whatever) for a lot less money..." Like most companies that offer tiered product lines, the message is generally carefully crafted to imply a certain meted-out portion of the experience, while leaving enough on the table for higher-up ranges. I haven't played any of the great imports of the past that people seem to regard so highly; I imagine most players who own them don't part with them easily. What I think about the different ranges I have played is that you do tend to get a better guitar as you move up."

The point of this was to emphasize the watering down of the custom shop experience as time goes on. In short, a custom shop guitar from the 80s would be worth much more, tone wise, versus an import guitar from then than a custom shop guitar would versus an import guitar now, since custom shops are under price pressures and import quality is improving due to automation and economy of scale.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

I think what comes closer to watering down the Custom Shop experience for Jackson are the USA Select series and the Custom Select series (kind of a semi-custom platform). The "custom-custom" is now called Master Built. They offer valid options between imports and customs. I'm familiar with the differences in the materials and construction between the recent imports and the USA Select series, and I do appreciate the differences enough to be motivated to shop from the USA Selects or the older, higher-end imports (when they turn up).

Back when nobody else was making guitars anything like these, naturally there was a higher premium on what Charvel or Jackson could offer. Before Fender's solidbodies went into production, how much might someone have paid for the first Broadcaster prototype, if they'd seen Leo playing it in a bar or something. (Though I've heard he wasn't really a player, but never mind.) I guess everything is custom before it goes into production, at which point it takes a lot of the pressure off of the custom shop's production capacity. They can be pickier about what they do, and about how they do it. Maybe they're less worried about pricing than before. (Wanna save money? Get a production model.) So I don't see mass produced value lines as taking away from custom shops so much as freeing them up to do what a custom shop is supposed to be for.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

Custom shops weren't as common back then too - so what they made was truly one of a kind.

Now a lot of large firms have their own custom shops, which do stock guitars as well as truly custom work. Like the shop floor custom versions of Duncan pickups. This dilutes the difference because the difference between pure custom is lower - you can order a semi custom guitar from any catalogue essentially. So the narrowing is both in range from top to bottom, but also the steps in between.

Having made a few guitars myself, I've got to know firsthand just how time-consuming some steps are - and they often make NO tonal change. Simply by taking a standard SSS strat build and putting it in the hands of a local luthier vs Fender Corona will almost double your price - even if you took the wood out of a shipment destined for the Corona American Standard strat production line.

So you can imagine then what has to happen in a production line scenario when only small changes happen.

The point being somewhat laboriously made is that custom work is never 'worth it' if you only consider incremental changes over a production line.

The big changes come from a true custom where you can get the luthier selecting compatible wood, and incorporating the small details you don't get stock.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

"The big changes come from a true custom where you can get the luthier selecting compatible wood, and incorporating the small details you don't get stock."

I suppose, then, the best argument for a custom shop these days would be something similar to Matthew Bellamy (Muse)'s custom guitars that he makes for himself, rather than custom shop simply being better because the workers are more skilled and the components are of a better quality.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Neck thru and Floyd Rose--cross purposes?

As far as traditional custom shop features vs. imports, building a neck thru mahogany guitar with an OFR and decent pickups for $1000 might seem like suicide, but not if you can sell thousands of them at a small profit. The custom shops will always be at a disadvantage because they can't be as productive, so their profit margins will have to be higher to offset their lower productivity.

As an example of imports improving, I began playing guitar in the mid 90s and I never recall seeing things like EMGs or neck thrus on import guitars before the early 00s. Now even active EMGs are fairly standard on imports, and the thrus are more common.

At the time Korn came out in the early 90s, a 7 string cost a small fortune. Now they are common. 8 strings have become ever more common and cheap over the past few years thanks to the popularity of Meshuggah and djent.

Pigbacon's comments about high end imports brings the early 90s Jackson Professional series to mind, which I believe is still sought after, as are the Stars Japanese models.