Need help with correct wiring 2x P Rails in a MM Steve Morse

[Sheronmusician]

Hi everyone

Kindly assist if you can, or advise if it cannot be done

I've got a Steve Morse (Darklord) of which I really dont want to deface or chance anything to not look stock besides the pickups.
I got 2 P-Rails second hand and want to incorporate them perfectly into the MM.
(Triple Shots not an option due to the scratchplate)

I've done some reading and research and it seems what i want done could be (possibly) achieved if i take out the tone knob (never use it)
and replace it with a 6 position 4 pole rotary switch.
This company is next door to me and have the following available:
https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/0321335
its a little expensive but until/if i find another option for now that is the one to get...

now the morse wiring is already a little special, its a HSH config but has a super 5way switch with the following wiring

1 (all the way down) Bridge Humbucker
2 - Bridge and middle single
3 - middle single
4- Bridge and neck humbuckers
5- neck humbucker

i'd like to add the following

1 push pull on the vol knob to allow for Series/Parallel

2 - a 6way rotary switch with the following wiring for the P Rails

1 - Both PRails Humbucker
2- Both Prails on P90 only
3 - Both Prails on Single (just the rail i think?)
4 - bridge on P90 neck on Single
5 - bridge on single neck on P90
6 (and that could be a little tricky) both PRails on single BUT to add the single coil from the middle position to it so when im in
position 4 on the blade i get all three singles on, and position 5 on blade i get middle on with the neck on single.

if position 6 on the rotary is a big NO NO option ill opt for the push pull to rather bring in the single in the middle but i think it could be done.

as the stock pickups are Dimarzios im gonna guess they are out of phase with Duncan so please keep that in mind?

Thanks in advance for your help and advise

Sheron

 

[Sheronmusician]

bump (sorry)

 

[ragamuffin]

I could be wrong, but I don't think what you're describing with the rotary switch would be possible. I'll let someone else comment on that though.

Since this is going to be a pretty complicated wiring scheme, my suggestion would be to keep it as simple as possible.

I would use I standard five way switch (B, B+M, M, M+N, N) and use two push-pull pos to get series/parallel/p90/rail on the p-rails. If your willing to drill a small hole in the pickguard I would add a "neck on" switch (this could possibly be done with the 5 way superswitch instead, but I am not well-versed enough to say how it would work).

This would't give you every option, but it would give you way more than most people need.

 

[jeremy]

id guess you might be able to wire it with that switch. 4 poles gives lots of options but that schematic is gonna be a bear to draw up

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Hi everyone

Kindly assist if you can, or advise if it cannot be done

I've got a Steve Morse (Darklord) of which I really dont want to deface or chance anything to not look stock besides the pickups.
I got 2 P-Rails second hand and want to incorporate them perfectly into the MM.
(Triple Shots not an option due to the scratchplate)

I've done some reading and research and it seems what i want done could be (possibly) achieved if i take out the tone knob (never use it)
and replace it with a 6 position 4 pole rotary switch.
This company is next door to me and have the following available:
https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/0321335
its a little expensive but until/if i find another option for now that is the one to get...

now the morse wiring is already a little special, its a HSH config but has a super 5way switch with the following wiring

1 (all the way down) Bridge Humbucker
2 - Bridge and middle single
3 - middle single
4- Bridge and neck humbuckers
5- neck humbucker

i'd like to add the following

1 push pull on the vol knob to allow for Series/Parallel

2 - a 6way rotary switch with the following wiring for the P Rails

1 - Both PRails Humbucker
2- Both Prails on P90 only
3 - Both Prails on Single (just the rail i think?)
4 - bridge on P90 neck on Single
5 - bridge on single neck on P90
6 (and that could be a little tricky) both PRails on single BUT to add the single coil from the middle position to it so when im in
position 4 on the blade i get all three singles on, and position 5 on blade i get middle on with the neck on single.

if position 6 on the rotary is a big NO NO option ill opt for the push pull to rather bring in the single in the middle but i think it could be done.

as the stock pickups are Dimarzios im gonna guess they are out of phase with Duncan so please keep that in mind?

Thanks in advance for your help and advise

Sheron

Am i understanding correctly that you
want to keep the existing 5 way superswitch functioning as-is and implement the 6 way Rotary as an augmentation to what the 5 way does? If that is correct, you cannot do what you want to do *without* altering how the 5 way superswitch is wired. And since alteration of the 5 way is required, i would recommend instead to not use the rotary at all and instead completely rewire the 5 way superswitch to do what you want (in combination with using a push-pull pot or two). This still supports your original goal of not modifying the outward appearance of your guitar. If this interests you, I could assist you -I have experience with designing complicated wiring schemes like this.

Also, the RS-Online 6 way rotary you provided a link to is not just a little pricey - it is ridiculoualy overpriced. In US dollars, the price is $72. Compared to about $10 for the Allparts brand version, part number EP-0920-000. Even factoring in the addition of international shipping costs to get the Allparts one delivered to you in South Africa, the Allparts one should still be a huge savings over that RS-Online version.

 

[Sheronmusician]

want to keep the existing 5 way superswitch functioning as-is and implement the 6 way Rotary as an augmentation to what the 5 way does? If that is correct,

That is the goal, yes.

cannot do what you want to do *without* altering how the 5 way superswitch is wired

I'd really appreciate an explanation please?

In any case, i am open to suggestions of course, thats why i am here

it is ridiculoualy overpriced

welcome to africa!! we suffer this in every aspect, you can't believe....
In any event i have ordered a 9 dollar part from stewmac (and 30 dollar shipping) and hopefully it'll be here next week.

I am open to ideas, for sure, just not defacing the guitar. its a limited edition Steve Morse (google dark lord Y2D) and the plate is a see through plate,
and while ive got two (plates - not guitars) i dont wanna drill into the guitar.

I know i can easily get the normal splits, both p90, both single, both humbuckers, plus series/parallel with two push pulls and at the worst case ill do that
i am just trying to get a little more versatile sounds where besides those three ill get p90 in bridge/single in neck and the p90 neck/single in bridge also.
anything else would be a bonus but not a must.
very open to rewiring the 5way super switch already in the guitar from factory and also would add a push pull at the vol knob to add whatever needed.

Would love to hear your ideas so hit me :1:
thanks

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I'd really appreciate an explanation please?

In the current wiring scheme, the Hot wires from the Bridge and Neck pickups get connected to the 5 way switch. To have the rotary do what you requested, the Hot wires from each pickup would get disconnected from the 5 way, goto the rotary first, and then additional wires would need to be implemented to go from the rotary back to the 5 way switch.

I've looked at your request again and see that i originally missed some complexities in what you want to do plus that the guitar only has 2 controls, that now makes me think that an additional 4 pole switch with more than 3 throws - like the rotary switch you proposed - is the best way to go.
It Is currently working hours for me, but after work today I will analyze whether the rotary could also handle the special part of your request to add the middle pickup to some positions that don't currently have it. I'm inclined to think no - but even if not, i have a workaround in mind that should make it possible. Will get back to you later today.

 

[Sheronmusician]

the Hot wires from each pickup would get disconnected from the 5 way, goto the rotary first, and then additional wires would need to be implemented to go from the rotary back to the 5 way switch.

oh yes, that part i understand completely, i meant the use of the 5way on my guitar needs to stay the same, or at least that is the goal. i am fully aware the the internal wiring will need to change completely

that now makes me think that an additional 4 pole switch with more than 3 throws - like the rotary switch you proposed - is the best way to go.

well the guitar has only two knobs, vol and tone and the super switch 5way.
i have the 6 position 4 pole switch en route that will replace the tone knob
and have no problem buying here locally a push pull for the volume.

anything else is not gonna work at all (unless you can think of it) as i have to have a vol knob i do a lot of volume ramp ups or clean up a dirty sound for example
and the guitar wont have any place to put any other switch without causing irreversible damage.

https://images.app.goo.gl/bBLH88AFW9iTisAZA https://images.app.goo.gl/bBLH88AFW9iTisAZA

even if we can get partly my need id appreciate it thank you

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

well the guitar has only two knobs, vol and tone and the super switch 5way.
i have the 6 position 4 pole switch en route that will replace the tone knob
and have no problem buying here locally a push pull for the volume.

anything else is not gonna work at all

Yep, i understand that. and was trying to acknowledge that in my last reply. I think what you want can be done with 1 volume (probably as a push-pull), the rotary, and the existing 5 way switch. Which is wbat you requested. You and i are in sync. Later i will analyze and confirm whether it really would work out.

 

[Sheronmusician]

Yep, i understand that. and was trying to acknowledge that in my last reply. I think what you want can be done with 1 volume (probably as a push-pull), the rotary, and the existing 5 way switch. Which is wbat you requested. You and i are in sync. Later i will analyze and confirm whether it really would work out.

Your'e a star thank you.

what came to mind, if all fails and there are less options with the current switching, i have a possible idea for a solution:

in any case i will add a push pull for the volume, but instead of making it series/parallel, maybe that can be used to bring in the middle single coil
thats gonna be left stock in the guitar? as long as it still runs through the volume knob for volume control, im happy.

however, my concern is now how to make a space in the wiring the shuts OFF all the other pickups as well, because that pickup sounds also great by itself, so
im not sure if that helps at all?
maybe when the 6way switch is in position 6 all the pickups are off and when i pull the vol knob only the middle single works? or am i just complicating things now? sorry

another compromise, originally i wanted the 6way switch to do in position 4 neck in p90 and bridge in single, and in position 5 the opposite.
if its all too much, i'd settle for a single split where i get one or the other (i mean when the neck and bridge play together - apart from having them split together). i'd love to have both options but if we cant, we cant.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Ok, I did some sketches, and there is some good news in more than one way.

First, what you want to do is possible with a 4 pole 6 position rotary.

2nd, nothing beyond the rotary switch will be needed to do what you want in Position 6. So no push-pull needed for the volume pot. This is made possible because you are NOT wanting to run either Prail pickup in Parallel mode. This leaves 2 of the rotary's 4 poles available to add Bridge and Neck to the output when the 5 way blade is set to Position #3 and the rotary is set to Position 6. And Bridge and Neck will be split to the Rail coils of the Prails pups like you wanted. If the rotary is set to any other position besides Position #6, you will get Middle Pickup only when the 5 way blade is set to Position #3. Again, like you want.

Private message me to discuss this further.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Oh wait, i re-read what you wanted rotary position 6 to do, and what i sketched out isn't a match. Going back to the sketches and will see if i can get wjat you want for rotary position 6....

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Ok Sheron, i figured out a way to provide you all the options you requested, but it has to be done a little differently than how you requested. I'll describe and you tell me if its acceptable or not.

Rotary position # 6 will have Bridge and Neck split to the Rail coils of each of those 2 pups, and the output of these two pups will be active (and running through the Master Volume) regardless of how the 5 way blade switch is set.

The 5 way blade will be rewired so that positon 3 is bridge and neck, and position 4 is neck and middle.

A push-pull pot on the master volume pot will let you get middle pickup only. The 5 way blade switch will be overriden (taken out of circuit) when the push-pull is Pulled Up. Yes, the middle pickup's signal still runs through the Master Volume pot.

This means you can get all three pickups active (with Bridge and Neck split to the Rail coils), but the rotary switch needs to be set to Position 6 AND the push-pull is in the Pulled Up position.

The slight downside is that when the rotary is in Positon 6 and the master volume pot is in the Down position, both neck and bridge pickups will both be active (and split to the Rail coils) regardless of how the 5 way switch is set.

This setup also gives you some additional pickup combinations than your prior scheme had, depending on how the rotary and 5 way are set.

 

[Sheronmusician]

could you please walk me step by step though every position?

the idea for my requests was just because i am used to how the guitar is wired. there is no problem learning and remembering eventually any
new wiring positions, so if i get even close to the diversity of the sounds i wanted (not to mention more???) i am more than happy and grateful

thank you my friend.

i think we are in different time zones, so it appears? I am in South Africa

 

[Sheronmusician]

This is made possible because you are NOT wanting to run either Prail pickup in Parallel mode

its not that i dont want it, i am willing to sacrifice it if needed for the sake of having the other options.
if its not an issue to implement i'd be happy but if not, no issue, i really am more looking to having both of the P Rails give me the max i can get from them

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Sheron,

Yes, I am on the East Coast of the US. You are six hours ahead of me.

Based on your reply about Paralllel mode, I think you don't yet know what you really want in a wiring scheme. As you don't have enough control and switch capacity on that guitar - even factoring in the rotary switch and 1 push-pull - to get every combination possible. I recommend you read reviews of these pickups and learn what people say about their strengths and weakenesses. There is a good number of reviews right here on this forum. A few popular opinions you should encounter is that the Series mode is too thick and hot (in the Bridge particularly), the Rail coils alone have a weak amount of output, the P90 coils alone tone is excellent and the Parallel mode is very good.

I'm happy to help you with a diagram after you've done that and gotten a firmer idea of what exactly you want.

Take care

 

[Sheronmusician]

I've done plenty of research on these PUs, have had my eye on them for a few years and was just looking for a good bargain second hand.

I've been playing guitar since early 90s and have a very good idea what to expect, however my comment about the Parallel wiring was just because ive never
bothered to worry about that..
most of my guitars one way or another were almost always stock unless i just change the pickups with similar and leave the wiring the same.

I usually do all my own installations and know my way well with the soldering iron, but was made to believe by a couple of techs i go to for extreme setups etc
that it'll take a bit of homework to work out the wiring i asked for so i came here.

I can understand you thinking im a novice guitarist by my comment and in no way i took offence to it, but i assure you i know what i want and know it well
(sorry, dont mean to sound arrogant at all - maybe its my israeli side)

would be very grateful if you can suggest the best way forward with my request at your earliest convenience, and as suits you

the biggest reason i want this done is because i NEVER ever get along with double humbucker guitars, im more of a super strat kind of player,
and i have owned so many (some very expensive) les pauls and other similar built models and the first gig i do with them i sell them soon after.
this guitar i dont want to sell and these PUs came up for sale just before i decided to sell it so its my vision that i can turn into
a very versatile instrument that i could play a whole gig with without getting frustrated about the two humbuckers.

please help me do that? :9:

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I've done plenty of research on these PUs, have had my eye on them for a few years and was just looking for a good bargain second hand.

I've been playing guitar since early 90s and have a very good idea what to expect, however my comment about the Parallel wiring was just because ive never
bothered to worry about that..
most of my guitars one way or another were almost always stock unless i just change the pickups with similar and leave the wiring the same.

I usually do all my own installations and know my way well with the soldering iron, but was made to believe by a couple of techs i go to for extreme setups etc
that it'll take a bit of homework to work out the wiring i asked for so i came here.

I can understand you thinking im a novice guitarist by my comment and in no way i took offence to it, but i assure you i know what i want and know it well
(sorry, dont mean to sound arrogant at all - maybe its my israeli side)

would be very grateful if you can suggest the best way forward with my request at your earliest convenience, and as suits you

the biggest reason i want this done is because i NEVER ever get along with double humbucker guitars, im more of a super strat kind of player,
and i have owned so many (some very expensive) les pauls and other similar built models and the first gig i do with them i sell them soon after.
this guitar i dont want to sell and these PUs came up for sale just before i decided to sell it so its my vision that i can turn into
a very versatile instrument that i could play a whole gig with without getting frustrated about the two humbuckers.

please help me do that? :9:

You brought up Parallel mode as a potential add-on feature to the scheme. If you do in fact want to incorporate parallel mode for one or both pickups, you just need to provide an updated description of what you want for the scheme. I'll review it and let you know if its possible or not, and suggest workarounds as applicable.

 

[Sheronmusician]

Hi everyone

Kindly assist if you can, or advise if it cannot be done

I've got a Steve Morse (Darklord) of which I really dont want to deface or chance anything to not look stock besides the pickups.
I got 2 P-Rails second hand and want to incorporate them perfectly into the MM.
(Triple Shots not an option due to the scratchplate)

I've done some reading and research and it seems what i want done could be (possibly) achieved if i take out the tone knob (never use it)
and replace it with a 6 position 4 pole rotary switch.
This company is next door to me and have the following available:
https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/rotary-switches/0321335
its a little expensive but until/if i find another option for now that is the one to get...

now the morse wiring is already a little special, its a HSH config but has a super 5way switch with the following wiring

1 (all the way down) Bridge Humbucker
2 - Bridge and middle single
3 - middle single
4- Bridge and neck humbuckers
5- neck humbucker

i'd like to add the following

1 push pull on the vol knob to allow for Series/Parallel

2 - a 6way rotary switch with the following wiring for the P Rails

1 - Both PRails Humbucker
2- Both Prails on P90 only
3 - Both Prails on Single (just the rail i think?)
4 - bridge on P90 neck on Single
5 - bridge on single neck on P90
6 (and that could be a little tricky) both PRails on single BUT to add the single coil from the middle position to it so when im in
position 4 on the blade i get all three singles on, and position 5 on blade i get middle on with the neck on single.

if position 6 on the rotary is a big NO NO option ill opt for the push pull to rather bring in the single in the middle but i think it could be done.

as the stock pickups are Dimarzios im gonna guess they are out of phase with Duncan so please keep that in mind?

Thanks in advance for your help and advise

Sheron

if its possible to add without affecting the other options, that would be nice.

if it would limit your ability to add any of the other options then i opt to rather let parallel go in favour of trying to get 1 through 6 of the options i wanted

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Ok, i've reviewed the impact of adding Parallel mode for both Bridge & Neck prail pickups. This would consume Position 6 of the rotary (since you already have both Rail coils in Position 3).

First, let's note that you have asked for the following 7 pickup combinations:

1 - Bridge
2 - Bridge and middle
3 - middle
4- Bridge and neck
5- neck
6 - neck and middle
7 - all 3 active

If parallel mode is added, you need to give up one of the 7 above.