Need help with different fender springs

[SJ318]

Hi,
I have 3 black springs, which seem on the loose side, 3 nickel looking springs which I assume are the vintage ones, they are stiff, and 3 bright silver/blueish looking springs that are also stiff and to me look a tad thicker.
Right now I am using two black on the outside claw to the middle of center block and one steel down the center. My other fender has one black and one nickel out to middle and one steel down the center.
I use the black ones and the nickel on the outside as they feel loose, and the steel in both middles as they seem the tightest. I set my plate floating so that an open G can be raised to A#.
The question is, they both come to tune very close, even with hard Jeff Beck phrases, and they are hard! I drilled my plate so the string leaves the block and touches nothing until it hits the saddle. So is there some law of physics or law of knowledge about what more seasoned non locking tremelo folks could let me know. Is it if it aint broke do not fix it, or would certain tight vs. Loose vs. Very tight be even better? End question--
Thank You smart folks as always.
Steve B.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

First of all...there is no right or wrong, good or bad. It's a matter of personal preference/feel. Stiffer springs or more springs give a stiffer feel to the strings, especially when bending. But IMO stiffer/more springs also improves tuning stability (I know, a perfect setup and certain "adjustments" to the trem is the greatest improvement to stability).

"Is it if it aint broke do not fix it"?, not necessarily. When I buy a guitar or new trem or bridge, I always polish everything that the strings touch and I create near-knife edges on the pivot points on the trem plate. For full floating trems I like to keep the plate pretty parallel with the surface of the guitar. I also like a stiffer feel so I use 4 or even 5 springs. But these are MY preferences.

Experiment with the springs to see what works best for you.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

GuitarDoc,
I think from what you say my mind tells me that it now seems obvious that even though the feel is tighter, it just makes sense that the harder to push/pull would even more likely to return to where it started. I am gonna go with 1 steel, 1 nickel on the outside and one steel down the center on 1 strat, and 2 nickel on the outside with my last steel down the center on my other.
Don't think I'll use the black springs at all as they are quite loose in comparison. I remember too long ago a flap over vintage springs and it was a 2 page thread, i think, but I can't even remember what forum it was - gear page, fender guit. forum, I just can't remember.
So thanks, I had wondered if there were strong arguments for one or the other and you helped me see it in a different light. I have one question for you. When you say level with body are you talking fender, or floyd-type trem? I can't picture a fender being level unless it was decked. Hope you see this question.
Thank you for responding.
Steve Buffington also, if it was you who said go "zebra '59 A5" on my "similar pickup" thread, thank you. I will. Don't have time, right this second to check, dinner is up, but I think it was you. Couple days ago-pickup lounge. If so, Thank you twice. Lt.Kojack said the same thing in a different section "go 59 A5 zebra for shop price" to get close to my $200.00 dollar Seth Zebra A5 custom.
Thanks again to all.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

It's about personal feel, primarily, but the number of springs you use will also affect tone girth/sustain to an extent.

I like Raw Vintage springs (there are some threads about them - do a search) they're nicely finished and very pliable under the fingers, so much so that even using 5 (as I am) doesn't make the trem a massive effort to work. But the fundamental tone of the string is stronger and sustain a bit longer using 5. Personally, I'd use stiffer springs only if I were hardtailing the bridge.

Springs are curious in that they have a memory, of sorts, subject to the amount of whamming (or lack thereof) one has done over the years. My old RG, which I played for 10 years, was very spongy feeling, even though it had some cheap stock springs - the trem felt great after all those years. When I got my current #1, the springs were extremely stiff (the guitar was hardtailed for gods know how long) - awful. In went the RVs and now it's all good.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

Mr. Ashurbanipal, and others,
I will look up the RV thread right after this. Question-regardless of the Type of spring, besides feel of course, is there any reason to think one type is better than another for fender type trems to stay in tune? Stiff seems like a logical choice, using the same number of each kind of course. Or is it that whatever type you fancy, as long as they are tight or have the same tension that matters most?
Thanks for answering, all this is very helpful.
Thank you all again. Steve Buffington

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

I'd say that tuning stability is more to do with overall setup and how the friction points in the string path have been dealt with, e.g. nut, how the bridge plate rocks against the six screws etc. If you have a vintage trem, for instance, there will always be something of a compromise - bent steel saddles don't have a notch for the string to sit in, which allows it to wander slightly within the area it's sitting on when depressing the bar and allowing return, causing tuning deviance. I think you have to factor these kinds of things in.

I don't know to what extent mixing differently tensioned springs (with their different rates) would affect stability, it's not something I've tried. My feeling is that setup will have more of an effect.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

Ashubanipal,
I did look up a thread and RV springs got what what forum folks call a lot of love. On set up- I have regular "new" 2 post fulcrum on 6 SCREW strat. I pulled the 2,3,4,5, off and my extra 2 post plate fit right on. I FILED carefully the 1 and 6 screws just under the screw head so it has a a smooth indentation to rock on. Works just like my regular 2 post fulcrum set. I also took the 1 and 6 screws out and let the super glue slowly soak evenly into the holes as someone mentioned. Never comes loose, that was 4-5 years ago; when I wanted, finally, to figure out Beck's "Beck Ola" and and even got a C- version of "where were you". It sounds hard and is triple hard to get some of those phrases. I should say every thing he plays whammy or not is like Jimi- another world. Beck's live "Roy's Toy" at BB King's house of blues is as devastating as the end of the world! The whole thing is. Been playin' for 50 years now. Am 60 and still can't touch them. V.Chile', after the beginning wah intro, I have never ever heard anyone who was "trying to copy" even get within the same ballpark. Myself included. (off topic, sorry).
By the way, I just check my 1 and 6 screw posts and they, along with my 2 hole plate, look as good as new.
OK Thank you- Steve Buffington EXRTA!!- I may have mistakenly said I was using screws 2 and 5 screws elsewhere and I apologize for that error.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

Yes, having notched screws makes a difference, as it gives a slot for the edge of the trem plate, so it doesn't wander round. You can buy them from John Mann (the original PRS trem guy); I don't know if they'd fit a Fender bridge though.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

If your question is if, given a certain mixture of springs, the location of the springs matters, the answer is no. The block is an "equalizer." What I mean is, say for example that you have two black springs and two nickel springs in there, arranged straight (non angled). No matter which way you arrange them, the total tension on the block remains the same, and your vibrato unit will act the same. It's the same reason why angling the claw has absolutely no effect on which strings are bent which amount, but only affects total tension.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

Dear Mr. ItsaBass, Actually, that is news to me,
I thought there was some kind of "tension spread", and that is why i've always seen people using that spread. But your explanation makes perfect sense, unless your block or claw was made out of rubber or cheese.
There was an argument that went on for pages and pages about the fine guitarist Carl Verheyn using more tension on one side, i think the bass side, to off set the stronger pull of the bass strings. your explanation fits exactly there. in fact, one guy, using physics ,explained just your case. if one side goes up, the other HAS to follow or it will break off in nice even slice. it's impossible otherwise. and sure enough that and what you just told me went on for days and stayed at the top of the list, that poor guy could not convince any one to listen. Maybe you were the guy. I stopped reading after i heard the physics of it. I had doubted it anyway. It was a few years ago.
Hopefully, then, would it also follow that what ever type of spring you used, as long as you have the tension where you want it i.e. up pull at a step & 1/2, loose springs should be as good as tight strings? is that also correct, or is there anything i am missing there. this will be, i believe, my last question, i hope you see it.
Thank You,
Steve Buffington. p.s. Mr.Ashurbanipul, those screws look WAY WAY better than mine. i must call him!! thanks

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

Yes, having notched screws makes a difference, as it gives a slot for the edge of the trem plate, so it doesn't wander round. You can buy them from John Mann (the original PRS trem guy); I don't know if they'd fit a Fender bridge though.

They work just fine with Fender (and other) V-Trems, Rockinger has been selling them as an upgrade since the mid ´80s

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Need help with different fender springs

^^ Voila.

p.s. Mr.Ashurbanipul, those screws look WAY WAY better than mine. i must call him!! thanks

You can get them online: http://www.mannmadeusa.com/Guitar_and_Bass_Bridges_s/1842.htm#.UbwreRy51wc. Pricey for screws but Mann Made stuff is top notch.

And the Rockinger ones mentioned by Zerb (a lot cheaper!): http://www.rockinger.com/index.php?...t=08P0C&sid3=cccc7b9ed0fb521eb429d70e230b5193.