Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

[Crush]

Hello,

I recently ordered a Johnson JH-100 on Ebay for $210. This is a Chinese copy of an ES-339. This guitar *did* come with a warped neck, so keep that in mind if you are tempted.

Here is the sound I do *NOT* want out of the guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnWPyQRmOg

Here is the sound I *DO* want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g61yJTf_x4A

I was told that a smaller hollow body would bring out more of twang so that's why I wanted this size.

I've been hearing all sorts of things. Some say the P90's can't produce a quality twang. A few people said that the real secret is to get a switchable humbucker of some type. Another said that you need to turn a certain type of humbucker upside down at the bridge area. Another said that any *hot* pickup regardless of type will never a hollow body a good hollow twang sound and that need to be quiet for it to sound proper.

So I'm not sure what to think. I was going to get the Vintage 59 Humbuckers but the guy at the store stopped me and said that it would be warm and fat sounding and I wouldn't be happy. I absolutely do *not* want fat warm sound. At all at all. I have the neck pickups for that. I want all bridge hollow twang.

Would anyone have a recommendations?

 

[freefrog]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Some say the P90's can't produce a quality twang.

According to my own experience and my own definition of "twang", if a guitar includes "50's wiring" and vintage type P90's properly set, it will twang. The link that you've posted with the Epi proves it, anyway.

A few people said that the real secret is to get a switchable humbucker of some type. Another said that you need to turn a certain type of humbucker upside down at the bridge area.

IME, one can do wonders with an adapted wiring. A "hot" HB in parallel can twang in a surprising way. Even a SH13, if you ask me.:scratchch

Another said that any *hot* pickup regardless of type will never a hollow body a good hollow twang sound and that need to be quiet for it to sound proper.

A clever use of pot values is another trick to obtain a satisfying twang from many PU's, IME. Try 1M pots...

So I'm not sure what to think. I was going to get the Vintage 59 Humbuckers but the guy at the store stopped me and said that it would be warm and fat sounding and I wouldn't be happy. I absolutely do *not* want fat warm sound. At all at all. I have the neck pickups for that. I want all bridge hollow twang.
Would anyone have a recommendations?

The 59 would typically produce the tone that you "DO NOT" want in the link above but the tricks that I describe could make it twang on request...

There's other solutions: TV Jones (that I like), DiMarzio Eric Johnson model (that I don't like much but which can be found for a cheap price)... or Skatterbrane "Twangbranes", which are stunning.

Before the expected "no it can't twang / yes it can" debate, I precise that IME/IMHO, "twang" also if not mostly depends on the external hardware : amp model, amp settings and cable capacitance...

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Is this going thru your home theatre set up too?
The axe you juts bought is humbucker equipped. There is no humbucker that will give serious "twang" really in the way that say a telecaster will. The realm of "twang" is ruled by single coil pickups. So you have three options to get as much "twang" as possible out of the guitar you have.
1. A humbucker sized single coil pickup such as an SD phat cat or GFS mean/dream 90s.
2. A brighter, snarling, cutting, defined humbucker. Perhaps a pearly gates.
3. A filterton style pickup in the shape of a humbucker such as the ones made by TV jones or possibly gfs.

ps. the shop owner was corrrect about 59's. Too much low end for your uses.

 

[Crush]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Is this going thru your home theatre set up too?
The axe you juts bought is humbucker equipped.

Yes that's the one.

So I was playing with it tonight and thought before I changed the string to slinkies that I would do a 'before' test.

The sound was SO BAD it was incredible. The humbuckers on this are EMG's and the sound is like mud. Ok lets put it this way... The sound is so bad I thought I made a mistake and went back and re-recorded the strum. This is clean, no colouring at all, recorded directly into the computer into WAV at 48khz 16 bit.

The sound is so night and day from the Tele, that I'm editing a video right now to upload comparing all the strings.

Again, the sound from this ES-339 is terrible. Muffled, low end, mud. It sounds good with metal distortion though.. especially the neck.

The real challenge with getting good guitar tone is twang. Here is the most unique, sought after challenging tone that no one has been able to recreate from a cheap guitar or amp modelling. Supposedly you need all the gear in the vid, plus flat wound, high gauge, pure nickel Pyramid strings or it won't work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn0-_1lrBQ8&t=1m5s

Here's a pic of my horrible sounding Johnson JH-100:

 

[AlexR]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Even before I clicked on the link I thought p90's.
There are some really great Bare knuckle humbucker sized p90's, phat cats are a possibility too but they're more fat than twangy.

You could also hit up a custom winder like Zhangbucker to get something unusual.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

My suggestion will not surprise regular forum members. P-Rails in Triple Shot mounting surrounds ONLY mounted the wrong way around (Rails outermost).

IMO, the entire stock electronics of the JH-100 have to be removed and replaced.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Hello,

I recently ordered a Johnson JH-100 on Ebay for $210. This is a Chinese copy of an ES-339. This guitar *did* come with a warped neck, so keep that in mind if you are tempted.

Here is the sound I do *NOT* want out of the guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnWPyQRmOg

Here is the sound I *DO* want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g61yJTf_x4A

I was told that a smaller hollow body would bring out more of twang so that's why I wanted this size.

I've been hearing all sorts of things. Some say the P90's can't produce a quality twang. A few people said that the real secret is to get a switchable humbucker of some type. Another said that you need to turn a certain type of humbucker upside down at the bridge area. Another said that any *hot* pickup regardless of type will never a hollow body a good hollow twang sound and that need to be quiet for it to sound proper.

So I'm not sure what to think. I was going to get the Vintage 59 Humbuckers but the guy at the store stopped me and said that it would be warm and fat sounding and I wouldn't be happy. I absolutely do *not* want fat warm sound. At all at all. I have the neck pickups for that. I want all bridge hollow twang.

Would anyone have a recommendations?

Here's where the twang's at.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/specialized-1/gretsch_filtert/

Not cheap, and it's going to take some modding to install'em in HB casings.

http://tvjones.com/pickups/filtertron-style/tv-classic/

These have a dedicated HB replacement model.

HTH,

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

EJ Custom set from Dimarzio

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Did I mention the EJ Custom set from Dimarzio yet?

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

I listened to your clips, and I think I hear the sort of steely, hollow sound you're looking for. Full-size humbuckers and P-90s won't get you there.

I'd look at repros of "toaster" style pickups like the TV Jones Supertron and Magnatron in humbucker housings. The Duncan custom shop makes some, too. Also a couple smaller makers I can't remember right now.

The Duncan staple repros are incredible(as your clip evidences) and they'll make 'em in a humbucker casing.

Lollar Charlie Christian pickups also have some of that steely sparkle.

A sleeper contender would be Wylde(Bill Lawrence) L-90 and 500 dual-blade humbuckers. If you can actually find a demo of them played clean, you'll hear Bill's ear for vintage CC-style jazz/swing tones.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

I think everyone has waaaaaaay overthought this one. Take a close look at each clip and note the pickup switch position, playing technique, and presence (or absence) of a pick. In the first (339) clip, the guy is playing:

1) Neck pickup ONLY for the first half or more of the clip, then middle with both pickups dimed, then each pickup backed off a little with the other dimed.
2) No pick
3) Fingerstyle up close to the neck. Fingertips and thumb will sound MUCH fatter than a pick, no matter the gear, especially up toward the neck like that.

Neck alone is going to be a fat jazzy tone with his technique, even on a smaller thinline. That would be the case even on a Tele. But the middle position stuff he does is also pretty thick and full due to his technique. A pick will also sound much fatter up toward the neck and much brighter toward the bridge.

2nd (Epiphone) clip:

1) This guys is playing bridge pu only for the first 15 or 20 seconds, then he switches to the middle position, then toward the end he's back on the bridge. NEVER neck-alone.
2) He's using a PICK.
3) He is picking the strings much closer to the bridge than the guy's fingertips in the 339 clip.

All these factors mean the Epiphone clip has a much brighter, twangier tone even though the Epiphone has a much, much bigger body. Pickup selection and (especially) playing technique matter FAR MORE than most people think.

I make my living winding and selling pickups but for the original poster, please try playing with the switch, vol knobs, and (again especially) your playing technique before trying to substitute new pickups for these adjustments.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

I think everyone has waaaaaaay overthought this one. [...]

Yep. Since I spend my time trying to get that sort of sound, and having spent the last few months wresting with humbucker and P-90 guitars trying unsuccessfully trying to coax bright shimmery twang I definitely have no idea what I'm talking about. None at all. None of the research I've done lately into the next set of pickups I need to try counts either, especially since you pulled the "I do this for a living" card.

I'll be pulling my over-thinking brain back into it's hole and start convincing myself that a modern humbucker sounds the same as a filtertron if you use a pick.

 

[indie folk guy]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Yep. Since I spend my time trying to get that sort of sound, and having spent the last few months wresting with humbucker and P-90 guitars trying unsuccessfully trying to coax bright shimmery twang I definitely have no idea what I'm talking about. None at all. None of the research I've done lately into the next set of pickups I need to try counts either, especially since you pulled the "I do this for a living" card.

I'll be pulling my over-thinking brain back into it's hole and start convincing myself that a modern humbucker sounds the same as a filtertron if you use a pick.

not to be offensive but you are talking to a guy that makes pickups for a living lol, he probably has a better idea of what he's talking about than your last few months of research

and everything he said is true and worth mentioning.

if you want to know something a P90 can twang, a humbucker can twang, a single coil can twang, a filtertron can twang. (I have guitars with P90s, Dynasonics, Filtertrons, PAFs, strat pickups, tele pickups, jazzmaster pickups, El Rayos, firebird pickups etc)

Tone is in your fingers

If you want to know something about how gear can help accomplish that then you can try different pot/cap values. You can use a pick vs fingers, etc. You can change the settings on your amp.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

I don't know what other kind of response you would expect from me after you chose a bad pair of clips for comparison: totally different pickup selection, small body vs. big box, and radically different playing technique -- fingerstyle near neck vs. pick closer to bridge. You gave the impression, whether intentionally or not, that you either overlooked these details or thought they don't matter. Next time use a more comparable pair of clips or you'll have to get cranky all over again when somebody else inevitably points these things out.

To really nail that kind of Duane Eddy twang, you need a big box as in the Epiphone clip (you were led astray by the small-semi recommendation), preferably a true archtop with no center block, though a deep body semi-hollow with trapeze tail could do it too. Often on such guitars (though far from always), the bridge pickup is pushed just a little bit further away from the bridge than on most electrics, from 1/8" to 1/4" further out, which gives the bridge that extra bit of 'wonk' in the mids needed for that big twang sound on bridge-alone. It also makes the difference between bridge-alone and bridge + neck more subtle, as is the case in the Epiphone clip.

You frequently mention a brighter tone but brightness isn't the same thing as twang, unless you're talking about Tele twang, which is a different critter. But the big twang you want is as much attitude as it is EQ, which is why you can really only get it from a woofy big box like that Epiphone -- AND by, yes, once again, using a PICK near the bridge. Once you have such a guitar, the type of pickup almost doesn't matter as long as they're not metalhead pu's. Low-wind humbuckers, P90s, Filtertrons, TV Jones -- all can get that basic character. But this is a bridge and bridge-neck + pick sound only; neck pu alone with won't work.

I did indeed play the "I do this for a living" card and make no apologies for it. I thought you might appreciate that a winder would come in here and tell you the problem is NOT the pickups but is instead the type of guitar and playing technique. Maybe you would have liked me better if I tried to con you into believing my pickups are the solution for your twang search?

Yep. Since I spend my time trying to get that sort of sound, and having spent the last few months wresting with humbucker and P-90 guitars trying unsuccessfully trying to coax bright shimmery twang I definitely have no idea what I'm talking about. None at all. None of the research I've done lately into the next set of pickups I need to try counts either, especially since you pulled the "I do this for a living" card.

I'll be pulling my over-thinking brain back into it's hole and start convincing myself that a modern humbucker sounds the same as a filtertron if you use a pick.

 

[KRKBAB]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Not to butt in, Zhangliqun, but the person who posted the question (Crush) is different from the person who criticized your "I do this for a living" statement (ParameterMan).

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

All right never mind. Sorry I got a little hot everybody.

I just see a lotta lotta lotta players who hit the strings the same way and in the same spot over and over and over again who wonder why they can't get a different tone out of it, and then try to solve the problem with different gear when the solution is just an inch or two away along the string with a different touch.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

I just see a lotta lotta lotta players who hit the strings the same way and in the same spot over and over and over again who wonder why they can't get a different tone out of it, and then try to solve the problem with different gear when the solution is just an inch or two away along the string with a different touch.

True dat.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Need hollow-twangy bridge pickup for ES-339 copy

Phat Cat...

Done.