New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Those who have a problem with the DiMarzio TM must not understand what trademarks are, or about the history of the double cream situation. DiMarzio having the trademark they have is understandable when you are up to speed on both of those things.

DiMarzio has a trademark on double cream bobbins of that certain type of cream because back in the '70's, double creams were synonymous with DiMarzios; double cream pickups in a guitar read directly as "DiMarzios." They were THE aftermarket pickup company, and they were THE company doing double creams. It makes perfect sense for them to have patented it. It unofficially represented their company, and though DiMarzio led the aftermarket field back then (planted it, really), other pickup makers were moving in, so they made the visual representation official. Unlike Gibson, DiMarzio used double creams by design, and unlike Gibson, double creams represented the company visually. The [very few] Gibsons humbuckers that were double creams: 1) were not double cream by design (the bobbins were never designed to be seen at all, and zebras, reverse zebras, and double creams all came about by chance), 2) never visually represented the Gibson company, and 3) were originally closer to parchment than cream anyhow (again, Dimarzio's trademark only applies to certain shades of cream – the shade that they use by design).

Their trademark only protects them from direct competition. Double creams can come OEM in a guitar no problem, because guitars don't compete with aftermarket pickups. Or they can be special ordered, e.g. from the S.D. Custom Shop, because they are not in standard production, in open competition with DiMarzio in shops and online. Companies can also do double white or double parchment, double aged white, etc., because those pickups don't really look like DiMarzios.
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but Dimarzio trademarking double creme is a very common move in any industry. I don't know why so many people here get so up in arms about it. Try marketing a cola using red and white and see if coke is ok with it. Or start a shipping company and use the color brown and see what UPS has to say. Target=red home depot=orange john deere=green etc etc

you don't have to like it, but you don't have to act like larry dimarzio pulled the biggest prank on the legal system of all time.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Ain't it just he owns the name "double cream"? I guess I can make my own pickups and call the color "rancid sour cream" and still look the same, right?.

No not at all... People tried this all along. Instead of cream they would call the color aged, off white, vintage white and dimarzio would still defend their mark. Recently color trade marks have come under fire for being unambiguous, if your trade mark is red it cant be all reds. Much like SD has done with using "parchment" its a obviously different shade of the same color so its ok.

Another thing most people dont understand about this mark is that its only for humbuckers with 12 round pole pieces. So rails and like Carvin pickups are just fine
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

The pickup is off white(parchment) NOT cream! here is the back
10153810_623817191043559_7429618814614795605_n.jpg
and another front shot
1978645_623817187710226_1424038558114971612_n.jpg
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

. Or they can be special ordered, e.g. from the S.D. Custom Shop, because they are not in standard production, in competition with DiMarzio.

This is absolutely 100% not true... For a time you could order them under a cover but not anymore. No where in trademark protection does it say that if you only make a few and it isnt standard production that its ok. What about all the basement winders that received cease and desist letters? Guys who made maybe 50 pickups a year. Sorry volume doesnt matter.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

(again, Dimarzio's trademark only applies to certain shades of cream – the shade that they use by design).

Their trademark only protects them from direct competition. Double creams can come OEM in a guitar no problem, because guitar companies don't compete with DiMarzio's business. Or they can be special ordered, e.g. from the S.D. Custom Shop, because they are not in standard production, in competition with DiMarzio. Companies can also do double white or double parchment, double aged white, etc., because those pickups don't really look like DiMarzios.

Really? Then someone should file a formal request to Seymour to start manufacturing humbuckers with different shade of cream, while start offering JBs in double cream as standard feature in Jacksons, ESPs, etc.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Really? Then someone should file a formal request to Seymour to start manufacturing humbuckers with different shade of cream, while start offering JBs in double cream as standard feature in Jacksons, ESPs, etc.

They do offer them! Double parchment is available...and it is (IMO) a much more tasteful and historically accurate color than DiMarzio's cream anyhow!
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Really? Then someone should file a formal request to Seymour to start manufacturing humbuckers with different shade of cream, while start offering JBs in double cream as standard feature in Jacksons, ESPs, etc.

all the better pickup winders like duncan,throbak,OX4,skatterbrane,raw vintage all use a lighter more authentic cream which is called vintage white.
dimarzio's cream has a orange tint to it and i think it is fugly! and they keep changing the tint of them so if you have a older model in double cream it may not match a newer one
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but Dimarzio trademarking double creme is a very common move in any industry. I don't know why so many people here get so up in arms about it. Try marketing a cola using red and white and see if coke is ok with it. Or start a shipping company and use the color brown and see what UPS has to say. Target=red home depot=orange john deere=green etc etc

you don't have to like it, but you don't have to act like larry dimarzio pulled the biggest prank on the legal system of all time.

People get upset about it only because they want double cream Duncans, and don't care about anything else except the fact that they can't get what they want. Since they can't have them, the company who holds the trademark is automatically run by an ass-hole. Never mind the perfectly valid and legal reasons that the company has the trademark in the first place...
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

They do offer them! Double parchment is available...and it is (IMO) a much more tasteful and historically accurate color than DiMarzio's cream anyhow!

Okay. It is confusing cause the catalog states that double creme isn't available cause it's a trademark owned by another company. Since SD actually offers double parchment, which is essentially double creme in different name (maybe in different shade too than Dimarzio's, which I don't care), the statement about not offering double creme is not necessary.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

People get upset about it only because they want double cream Duncans, and don't care about anything else except the fact that they can't get what they want. Since they can't have them, the company who holds the trademark is automatically run by an ass-hole. Never mind the perfectly valid and legal reasons that the company has the trademark in the first place...

yeah but in this case he is a A hole! ask those that have met him
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

I'm sure he is, from what I hear! But not because people can't get Duncan double creams. That's just him completely reasonably protecting his business.

Okay. It is confusing cause the catalog states that double creme isn't available cause it's a trademark owned by another company. Since SD actually offers double parchment, which is essentially double creme in different name (maybe in different shade too than Dimarzio's, which I don't care), the statement about not offering double creme is not necessary.

I think the statement is necessary, because cream and parchment are very different. Perhaps they should add to it that double parchment is available, however.
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

I will address just a few of the misconceptions in this thread.

In terms of infringement, there's no difference between OEM sale and after-market sale.

As to the shade of the color, the test is whether or not it would create confusion in the marketplace. Call it what you want, if customers confuse it with the shade of cream that is the subject of DiMarzio's trademark, they could have a case for infringement.

The way DiMarzio got the trademark is by asserting something called "acquired distinctiveness" based on a claim of five years exclusive use in commerce of exposed double-cream humbuckers. Seymour Duncan opposed their registration because they were also selling double-cream pickups during that five year period. It went to litigation. Seymour Duncan won the first two rounds but eventually made a business decision to abandon the litigation because it was either fight DiMarzio or launch their amp line, and they thought that getting into amps was a better use of their money at that time. Seymour Duncan never disputed DiMarzio's right to get a trademark. They disputed their acquired distinctiveness claim because Seymour Duncan was selling double-cream humbuckers during that five year period.

By the way, WD got their trademark on the lipstick tube pickup design exactly the same way; by asserting acquired distinctiveness for five years, in their case 1995-1999, the same years lipstick tubes were found on Charvels, Chandlers, Ibanez, Jerry Jones and other guitars including boat-loads of Korean Danelectros. WD's lawyer and DiMarzio's lawyer is the same guy. Coincidence?

You can't get double cream pickups from Seymour Duncan unless you happen to get an Antiquity or Seth Lover that was built that way, by happenstance, and even then it would be covered.

I'm pretty sure there are other misconceptions in this thread. If I have time later, I might come back and address some others.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

So... We gotta lynch that SOB lawyer.
Sent from my RM-915_apac_thailand_213 using Tapatalk
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Try marketing a cola using red and white and see if coke is ok with it.

Actually that does happen, there are lots cola drinks using red and white colors, because Coca-Cola does not own the colors!!!!!


Edit: Thanks to Evans for the clarification of what the facts are, even if it makes no sense to me :(
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Actually that does happen, there are lots cola drinks using red and white colors, because Coca-Cola does not own the colors!!!!!


Edit: Thanks to Evans for the clarification of what the facts are, even if it makes no sense to me :(

IMO it's ridiculous that everyone seems to be up in arms about it. IMO, (just my opinion) uncovered pickups are rather ugly and look unfinished, showing the wires and tape. If you insist on wanting double cream, just go with Dimarzio. Duncan's focus is on tone. Dimarzio caters towards cosmetics, which is why it's easier to order an odd color pickup like blue, green, purple, or even gold or chrome uncovered pickups from Dimarzio.

There are some color offerings from Duncan, but it's not heavily promoted.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

The percentage of double cream pickups being sold has to be so small anyway.

I would love to see the break down of sales by colors.

What percentage were all black, zebra, colored, covered, etc...
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Can't imagine how much weed went into that paint design. Is that bumpy stripe supposed to be a person in profile or a bleed through the tape? The top unconnected circle thing looks a bit different than the original, like more symmetrical.
 
Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

The percentage of double cream pickups being sold has to be so small anyway.

I would love to see the break down of sales by colors.

What percentage were all black, zebra, colored, covered, etc...

Yep. It's really not an issue that hurts anyone anyhow IMO. And double parchment (which looks a whole lot better than DiMarzio's sickly cream color anyhow) is available at no additional cost.

As for distinctiveness, DIMarzio in fact had it in the marketplace (i.e. "on the street"), despite the fact that Duncan and other pickup guys may have been making double creams for a while. You don't have to be the only one doing something in order to get a TM; you just have to be the only one who is almost universally recognized in the market for doing it. DiMarzio was a more popular company at that point. Likely nobody in the '70's ever saw a double cream and thought, "He's got Duncans in his guitar." In guitar land, it was a symbol of DiMarzios; you saw double creams, and you assumed they were DiMarzios. Not that they couldn't be something else, but that would be the exception rather than the rule.

Coca Cola could not TM the colors red and white for a drink. But they could TM a certain, recognizable arrangement of red and white that customers read directly as "Coca Cola," even if a less popular brand used a very similar logo.
 
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Re: New EVH "Circles" guitar - double creme?

Edit: Thanks to Evans for the clarification of what the facts are, even if it makes no sense to me :(

Basically, they got the trademark by claiming that for five consecutive years, they were the only ones selling double-cream humbuckers. And after those five years concluded, they now "owned" the design since no one else was selling them during that period. The only problem is that SD was also selling them during that period.

Duncan and other pickup guys may have been making double creams for a while, but nobody ever saw a double cream and thought, "He's got Duncans in his guitar." It was a symbol of DiMarzio, nobody else.

If DiMarzio was exclusively selling double-cream during those five years, then they achieved acquired distinctiveness. If others competitors were selling during those five years, they did not.
 
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