New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

[MJL721]

I have an HSS Strat.

250k volume
250k tone for the single coils (Dimarzio Area 61 necl, 58 middle)
500k tone for the bridge humbucker (Pearly Gates)

I've been thinking about putting a 500k volume pot in there because the Pearly Gates has a darkness to the sound that doesn't quite match up with the single coils. It always sorta bugged me because I've always read that the PG was a bright pickup, but that wasn't the case in my experience. It doesnt sound bad. Its been in my guitar for about 5 years, but it seemed like the difference between the HB and single coils is drastic as far as EQ. It almost sounds like 2 different guitars. I almost have to EQ for the SC's or the HB and compromise.

I've only recently realized that the volume pot affects the sound of the guitar just as much as the tone pots do. I thought simply replacing the bridge tone to a 500k would give it what it needs to brighten up enough, but hasn't.

Now I am considering just taking the tone pot out completely of the bridge humbucker, but I'm unsure if it will be too bright, or if it will be just right relative to the 250k volume pot.

So basically my question is, would simply removing the tone control on my bridge pickup relative to the 250k vol pot that is already in the guitar, be comparable to the sound of a 500k vol/500k tone setup for the bridge?

 

[jeremy]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

the pg isnt as bright as people would have you believe. its really easy to remove the bridge tone wire and see if you like it. do you like the tone of the neck and middle pups currently?

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

Thanks for the response! I always thought that these single coils sounded a little bit dull to be honest with you, but I can't explain why. I actually think the stock single coils sounded a little better, but I live with it because I like not dealing with the 60 cycle hum.

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

Here is a picture of the inside of my guitar.



Am I to understand that all that I need to do, is snip the (I'm assuming) black wire connecting the bridge tone pot to the middle tone pot?

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

The black wire is just the ground connection. You need to keep that intact.

There appears to be a bare wire across 2 adjacent lugs of the 5-way blade switch. This connects the tone control between the middle and bridge pickups.

If you remove the bare wire that is bridging these two and leave the white wires attached to the same lugs where they are currently, you will be able to delete the tone control for the bridge pickup. Its probably easiest to just snip the connection with a pair of side cutters, so you don't even need a soldering iron.

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not adept at guitar wiring schematics and whatnot. Just sort of learning more about it recently. I see the white wire, and two red wires between those lugs. Is it one of them?

Are there alternative ways to remove the tone pot out of the circuit? Would snipping the tone capacitor do the same thing?

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

The bare wire I wrote about is just a shiny piece of wire that is linking across the two adjacent lugs of the 5-way blade. Its is underneath the two red wires and one of the white wires.

It should be a lot easier to spot when looking at the actual pickguard wiring, than it is in the pic!

 

[jeremy]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

no, snipping the tone cap wont work. there are currently two tone controls. what pups does each effect?

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

The other alternative is to swap the 500k Tone pots for a pair of 1M Tone pots. That will brighten up the Dimarzio area pickups as well.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

no, snipping the tone cap wont work. there are currently two tone controls. what pups does each effect?

The wiring appears to be like a normal strat. Tone #1 is for the neck pickup. Tone #2 (lower pot) is currently for both middle and bridge.

EDIT: Despite comments from MJL721 above, that's how it looks from the wiring!

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

The wiring appears to be like a normal strat. Tone #1 is for the neck pickup. Tone #2 (lower pot) is currently for both middle and bridge.

EDIT: Despite comments from MJL721 above, that's how it looks from the wiring!

Yes, you are correct.

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

So now that I realized what is actually going on here, is it possible that by the middle and bridge pickups wired together, that the bridge pickup has been loaded down below 500k, and not getting the brightness that I expected to hear? Is it possible for me to fix this by taking the middle pickup out of the circuit, subsequently freeing up the bridge humbucker to get the 500k it wants to see?

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

So now that I realized what is actually going on here, is it possible that by the middle and bridge pickups wired together, that the bridge pickup has been loaded down below 500k, and not getting the brightness that I expected to hear?

Yes. The bridge pickup is being loaded by both the 250k volume and 500k tone control together. You should be able to confirm that because the tone control is working on the bridge pickup.

Is it possible for me to fix this by taking the middle pickup out of the circuit, subsequently freeing up the bridge humbucker to get the 500k it wants to see?

The middle pickup is completely out of the circuit when you switch the blade to Position 1, so that is not causing any trouble with your existing wiring.
Please see the attached wiring diagram. Here it appears that your guitar has been wired with the blue link in place, which is very typical for modern strat style guitars. If you delete the link shown in blue, you will be back to vintage strat wiring. In the case of vintage strat wiring there was no tone control for the Bridge pickup. Your bridge pickup will only see the 250k load of the volume control. That makes the bridge pickup as bright as possible while keeping a 250k volume control. There are some slight difference in your wiring because your guitar has 2 separate tone capacitors. However that is not really important because we only need to consider how the tone controls are connected to the 5-way blade switch.

 

[Jacew]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

500k volume would make more difference. And I presume it would be quite improvement for bridge tone.

There are stacked pots with 250k/500k tapers respectively you could use to have both. That would also require you to wire them before 5-way switch (and tone controls), which makes your volume retain more high end when lowered. (In a style of "vintage" wiring in LP's).

 

[MJL721]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

Thanks for the information everyone. Believe it or not I've already learned way more than I knew yesterday about this sort of thing. But, I still have questions, so bear with me.

Is there a way to measure what the load would approximately be with a 250k vol and bridge humbucker out of the circuit?

How similar is that sound compared to a 500k vol/ 500k tone setup?

Furthermore, how would a 500k vol/250k tone setup compare to a 250k vol/500k tone setup on the bridge position?

I'm just trying to better understand, not just how these things work but how they compare as far as sound too. The sooner I have a better understanding of how they compare, even in a general sense, the sooner I could apply this to any of my guitars so that I can get the sound that I hear in my head. So thanks for helping me out.

 

[Jacew]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

Thanks for the information everyone. Believe it or not I've already learned way more than I knew yesterday about this sort of thing. But, I still have questions, so bear with me.

Is there a way to measure what the load would approximately be with a 250k vol and bridge humbucker out of the circuit?

How similar is that sound compared to a 500k vol/ 500k tone setup?

Furthermore, how would a 500k vol/250k tone setup compare to a 250k vol/500k tone setup on the bridge position?

I'm just trying to better understand, not just how these things work but how they compare as far as sound too. The sooner I have a better understanding of how they compare, even in a general sense, the sooner I could apply this to any of my guitars so that I can get the sound that I hear in my head. So thanks for helping me out.

Higher volume pot preserves more of all frequencies, not just highs (Though highs are easily most prominent difference). So you get slightly more output and "thump" with it. Higher tone pot let's less highs bleen to ground so you get just more highs with no effect on lows. 250k tone is already quite effective in that sense, but it does make a change to switch for 500k, and a good advice to try that first as it's easier.

Since you have two caps, even easier and simply thing to try out would be trying 10 nf (0.01) or even 6-8 nf (0.008) cap there. Personally I prefer lower value pot with lower value cap, as it seems to smoothen out high mids a bit.

EDIT: Note that you can't straightforwardly calculate the overall load of tone and volume, because tone only affects higher part of frequency spectrum.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

Is there a way to measure what the load would approximately be with a 250k vol and bridge humbucker out of the circuit?

How similar is that sound compared to a 500k vol/ 500k tone setup?

Furthermore, how would a 500k vol/250k tone setup compare to a 250k vol/500k tone setup on the bridge position?

I'm just trying to better understand, not just how these things work but how they compare as far as sound too. The sooner I have a better understanding of how they compare, even in a general sense, the sooner I could apply this to any of my guitars so that I can get the sound that I hear in my head. So thanks for helping me out.

With the volume and tone all on 10, I don't think you will be able to pick the difference between 250k Volume (without tone control), compared to the 500k vol/500k tone setup. In an electrical sense with everything set to 10, the electrical measurement is effectively the same. The main difference will occur when the volume is backed off. If you have a long cable such as 15' or 20' its common to lose some high frequencies when volume control is set anywhere except to 10/10ths. In your case your guitar has a green capacitor on the volume control which is called a 'treble bleed cap', so that will change the tone you get when the volume is rolled off. If you swap the current 250k volume control for a 500k one, you will get brighter tone when the volume is set to 10/10ths simple because of increased resistance loading. However when the volume is backed off, the 500k volume control combined with the 'treble bleed cap' will have an effect on the tone which may be positive or negative. Its most likely going to further exaggerate the brightness when you roll off the volume, possibly in a way you might not be used to. If you look into the subject you will find a lot of different ideas about treble bleed caps and how they should be setup. Once you find a treble bleed that you are familiar with, you may not like to change it as it can affect the way you use the volume control. Its also possible you may not be sensitive to such things, especially if you only ever play with the volume on 10.

Because of the 'treble bleed cap' in your guitar, my first suggestion is to try some changes with the tone controls, while keeping your stock 250k volume control. Possibly by changing the wiring or swapping 500k controls to 1M. You can also try different instrument cables that have different capacitance. Typically shorter 10' cables my have less capacitance, but its not always the case.

 

[Jacew]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

With the volume and tone all on 10, I don't think you will be able to pick the difference between 250k Volume (without tone control), compared to the 500k vol/500k tone setup. In an electrical sense with everything set to 10, the electrical measurement is effectively the same. The main difference will occur when the volume is backed off. If you have a long cable such as 15' or 20' its common to lose some high frequencies when volume control is set anywhere except to 10/10ths. In your case your guitar has a green capacitor on the volume control which is called a 'treble bleed cap', so that will change the tone you get when the volume is rolled off. If you swap the current 250k volume control for a 500k one, you will get brighter tone when the volume is set to 10/10ths simple because of increased resistance loading. However when the volume is backed off, the 500k volume control combined with the 'treble bleed cap' will have an effect on the tone which may be positive or negative. Its most likely going to further exaggerate the brightness when you roll off the volume, possibly in a way you might not be used to. If you look into the subject you will find a lot of different ideas about treble bleed caps and how they should be setup. Once you find a treble bleed that you are familiar with, you may not like to change it as it can affect the way you use the volume control. Its also possible you may not be sensitive to such things, especially if you only ever play with the volume on 10.

Because of the 'treble bleed cap' in your guitar, my first suggestion is to try some changes with the tone controls, while keeping your stock 250k volume control. Possibly by changing the wiring or swapping 500k controls to 1M. You can also try different instrument cables that have different capacitance. Typically shorter 10' cables my have less capacitance, but its not always the case.

No. It's not the same. It's note the "inline" resistance of pots (which is 0 at 10 as you said) that matters, but load between hot and ground.

While two 500k pots does equal 250k load, second pot doesn't connect to straight to ground, but through a cap, which filters only high frequecies out of the signal.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

No. It's not the same. It's note the "inline" resistance of pots (which is 0 at 10 as you said) that matters, but load between hot and ground.

While two 500k pots does equal 250k load, second pot doesn't connect to straight to ground, but through a cap, which filters only high frequecies out of the signal.

I say its "effectively the same" as having a load of 250k. The resistance of the tone control is largest when set to 10/10ths, so the capacitor doesn't need to pass much current to make the 500k tone control appear as though its connected to ground. For frequencies at 60Hz, the impedance of the 0.022uF capacitor is 120k ohm. For higher frequencies, the impedance of a capacitor halves for every doubling of frequency. At 1kHz the impedance of the 0.022uF cap falls to about 7.2k ohm. For the guitar we are mostly concerned with frequencies of 1kHz and higher that's associated with brightness. The 7.2k ohm is close enough to zero, so you get an overall load that is very close to 250k resistive loading in the upper frequency range.

 

[Jacew]

Re: New here! Question about pot values for Pearly Gates in HSS Strat

I say its "effectively the same" as having a load of 250k. The resistance of the tone control is largest when set to 10/10ths, so the capacitor doesn't need to pass much current to make the 500k tone control appear as though its connected to ground. For frequencies at 60Hz, the impedance of the 0.022uF capacitor is 120k ohm. For higher frequencies, the impedance of a capacitor halves for every doubling of frequency. At 1kHz the impedance of the 0.022uF cap falls to about 7.2k ohm. For the guitar we are mostly concerned with frequencies of 1kHz and higher that's associated with brightness. The 7.2k ohm is close enough to zero, so you get an overall load that is very close to 250k resistive loading in the upper frequency range.

I see. Interesting!

I always assumed the caps to start cutting frequencies much higher. I guess that's why smaller caps and 500k pots sound always better to me. 22nf cap would then have only 60k extra at 120hz, 30k in 240hz and 15k at 480hz!

Combine that with two 250k pots parallel in regular strat and it's cutting all the glorious low-mids from the signal...