New neck or refret?
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octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
Hard to tell from the photos, but heavier frets are always a good idea.
Hard to tell from the photos, but heavier frets are always a good idea.
ImmortalSix
John Mayer's Mankini
Re: New neck or refret?
:laughing: Well, it didn't. I scored the neck for $250, including the tuners and nut. The estimate I got for a full PLEK setup was "starting at $180." It probably would have been cheaper to get the original maple neck dressed by a luthier with a PLEK machine, but my frets were so worn out that after a level and crown, they were going to be lower than I would want to play.
My situation is a bit of an outlier, though --- I wanted to switch from maple to rosewood anyways.
Best of luck to the OP!
-Hunter
:laughing: Well, it didn't. I scored the neck for $250, including the tuners and nut. The estimate I got for a full PLEK setup was "starting at $180." It probably would have been cheaper to get the original maple neck dressed by a luthier with a PLEK machine, but my frets were so worn out that after a level and crown, they were going to be lower than I would want to play.
My situation is a bit of an outlier, though --- I wanted to switch from maple to rosewood anyways.
Best of luck to the OP!
-Hunter
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
i don't know what the big deal is with the Plek machine. a lot of techs are charging way over the odds for actually doign less work and relying on the idea that the Plek machine is actually better than a human with skills; it ain't. I routinely make inprovements on guitars from Gibson that have been Plek'd. The machine is a clever thing but is only a labour saving device and only as good as the operator, not magic...
I proven that I'm better than a Plek many, many times, and cheaper...
File under gimmick.
i don't know what the big deal is with the Plek machine. a lot of techs are charging way over the odds for actually doign less work and relying on the idea that the Plek machine is actually better than a human with skills; it ain't. I routinely make inprovements on guitars from Gibson that have been Plek'd. The machine is a clever thing but is only a labour saving device and only as good as the operator, not magic...
I proven that I'm better than a Plek many, many times, and cheaper...
File under gimmick.
ImmortalSix
John Mayer's Mankini
Re: New neck or refret?
Interesting to hear what a luthier's perspective on this piece of equipment is, for sure.
The guy I spoke with made sure to remind me many times that the machine doesn't set up the guitar, the luthier does, and the machine simply enables that luthier to make the necessary changes with a high degree of precision and accuracy.
I basically wanted to try a PLEK fret dress / setup because I was (and still am) curious about the results. Of course the user testimonials posted everywhere are glowing reviews, but I'll assume luthiers with PLEK machines, just like luthiers with good hand tools only post their positive and enthusiastic testimonials alike. I equate it to the "handmade boutique" vs. "high end CNC" guitar debate --- they'll probably both be brilliant instruments, only one will be more of an accomplishment in engineering and the other will be an accomplishment in skill and art --- that said, the end result is similar --- a nice ass guitar :laughing:
At any rate, my choice to buy a new neck as opposed to getting a professional dress / recrown or a complete refret was motivated much more by the fact that I like rosewood more than maple than the virtues of maintenance via luthiery vs replacement.
All the best, and thanks for offering a professional opinion for the OP to mull over
-Hunter
Interesting to hear what a luthier's perspective on this piece of equipment is, for sure.
The guy I spoke with made sure to remind me many times that the machine doesn't set up the guitar, the luthier does, and the machine simply enables that luthier to make the necessary changes with a high degree of precision and accuracy.
I basically wanted to try a PLEK fret dress / setup because I was (and still am) curious about the results. Of course the user testimonials posted everywhere are glowing reviews, but I'll assume luthiers with PLEK machines, just like luthiers with good hand tools only post their positive and enthusiastic testimonials alike. I equate it to the "handmade boutique" vs. "high end CNC" guitar debate --- they'll probably both be brilliant instruments, only one will be more of an accomplishment in engineering and the other will be an accomplishment in skill and art --- that said, the end result is similar --- a nice ass guitar :laughing:
At any rate, my choice to buy a new neck as opposed to getting a professional dress / recrown or a complete refret was motivated much more by the fact that I like rosewood more than maple than the virtues of maintenance via luthiery vs replacement.
All the best, and thanks for offering a professional opinion for the OP to mull over
-Hunter
DazH
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
I absolutely 100% agree with octave. just simply upgrading to modern hand tools (precision levelling beams & diamond crowning files) is enough to do a better job.
I absolutely 100% agree with octave. just simply upgrading to modern hand tools (precision levelling beams & diamond crowning files) is enough to do a better job.
W
wolf5150
Guest
Re: New neck or refret?
You guys need to look into the Plek.
I've had all mine Plekked after my Suhr arrived with it.
Once it's done, you're guaranteed NO buzz anywhere.
NO human can get it that precise.
I had Charlie Chandler do all mine in London and there is no better luthier anywhere in the world and even he admits the Plek is better than he can perform.
I have stainless frets in all mine now, inc my PRS and for them I think the Plek is ideal.
You guys need to look into the Plek.
I've had all mine Plekked after my Suhr arrived with it.
Once it's done, you're guaranteed NO buzz anywhere.
NO human can get it that precise.
I had Charlie Chandler do all mine in London and there is no better luthier anywhere in the world and even he admits the Plek is better than he can perform.
I have stainless frets in all mine now, inc my PRS and for them I think the Plek is ideal.
DazH
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
the difference between a plek & a good luthiers work, yeah - there may be a few thousanths difference or whatever - but that kind of height difference only makes a difference at action heights that are stupidly low - sorry but a properly setup guitar doesnt buzz anyway, it's prodominantly about finding the right string gauge (therefor enough tension) and action height for the player.
the difference between a plek & a good luthiers work, yeah - there may be a few thousanths difference or whatever - but that kind of height difference only makes a difference at action heights that are stupidly low - sorry but a properly setup guitar doesnt buzz anyway, it's prodominantly about finding the right string gauge (therefor enough tension) and action height for the player.
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
Yes they can, it's easy.
i have seen dozens of guitars that have been Plek'd.
My friend Dave worked for Charlie Chandler and has used the thing.
Charlie's a nice guy but at the prices he charges for plekking it's in his interests to spin it as superhuman. It's not. It's clever, but only as good as the operator.
I have yet to see a plek'd guitar that passed my 15 micron accuracy test, and which i haven't been able to improve on, and that includes guitars that have come out of Chandler's workshops. The best I've seen has been a Heritage 335 which I posted about a while back. All the plekked Gibson I've seen have been pants and needed loads of work.
Yes they can, it's easy.
i have seen dozens of guitars that have been Plek'd.
My friend Dave worked for Charlie Chandler and has used the thing.
Charlie's a nice guy but at the prices he charges for plekking it's in his interests to spin it as superhuman. It's not. It's clever, but only as good as the operator.
I have yet to see a plek'd guitar that passed my 15 micron accuracy test, and which i haven't been able to improve on, and that includes guitars that have come out of Chandler's workshops. The best I've seen has been a Heritage 335 which I posted about a while back. All the plekked Gibson I've seen have been pants and needed loads of work.
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
It's still a very US dominated board though.
Although I live in South Wales and am nominally Welsh, most of my business still comes in through Bristle...
I have a tiny, tiny workshop in Music Station in Bridgend where I'm off to today to do some work on a guitar for the guy promoting the U2 megagig at Millennium Stadium in Cardiff for which I got no less than 12 comps! Yay!
It's still a very US dominated board though.
Although I live in South Wales and am nominally Welsh, most of my business still comes in through Bristle...
I have a tiny, tiny workshop in Music Station in Bridgend where I'm off to today to do some work on a guitar for the guy promoting the U2 megagig at Millennium Stadium in Cardiff for which I got no less than 12 comps! Yay!
Imp
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
sweet! i worked for a little bit in plugging records and the amount of freebees flying around was incredible.. 12 comps for U2 is the new record holder though!
do you come over the toll bridge every day then? i could have lived in bristol for the job, decided not to..
sweet! i worked for a little bit in plugging records and the amount of freebees flying around was incredible.. 12 comps for U2 is the new record holder though!
do you come over the toll bridge every day then? i could have lived in bristol for the job, decided not to..
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
It is actually (almost) impossible to set a guitar up so that it never buzzes at any fret under all conditions. The string's arc envelope is neither constant nor predictable; string precession and the coriolis effect changes it's characteristics all the time, as do the position of the the pickups on an electric and the position of the guitarist's pick, its angle etc. whether he uses a pick or fingers whether his fingers have nails or not, howe hard he hits the strings, there are many, many variables. The plek and the truss rod can only deliver a neck profile which satisfies one...
The plek is a remarkable machine but it still takes a human to programme it and monitor its performance. That human still has to understand the the rules of string dynamics and the spatial geometry of the fingerboard so given that, anything he can do with the Plek he could also do by hand. Where the Plek offers an advantage is he can go away and make a cup of tea or get on with another job and leave the Plek to do it so it's advantage is entirely for the luthier. Just having a Plek won't allow you to pull someone off the dole queue and set them to dressing frets perfectly (and neither will it change the laws of physics for you; your fret buzz is still conditional upon the gap between the string and frets) although you could argue that it's easier to train them to operate the Plek than to actually do a fret dress and the plek doesn't get lazy or take short cuts and always does the job properly. Not so of apprentices, I find! :28:
It is actually (almost) impossible to set a guitar up so that it never buzzes at any fret under all conditions. The string's arc envelope is neither constant nor predictable; string precession and the coriolis effect changes it's characteristics all the time, as do the position of the the pickups on an electric and the position of the guitarist's pick, its angle etc. whether he uses a pick or fingers whether his fingers have nails or not, howe hard he hits the strings, there are many, many variables. The plek and the truss rod can only deliver a neck profile which satisfies one...
The plek is a remarkable machine but it still takes a human to programme it and monitor its performance. That human still has to understand the the rules of string dynamics and the spatial geometry of the fingerboard so given that, anything he can do with the Plek he could also do by hand. Where the Plek offers an advantage is he can go away and make a cup of tea or get on with another job and leave the Plek to do it so it's advantage is entirely for the luthier. Just having a Plek won't allow you to pull someone off the dole queue and set them to dressing frets perfectly (and neither will it change the laws of physics for you; your fret buzz is still conditional upon the gap between the string and frets) although you could argue that it's easier to train them to operate the Plek than to actually do a fret dress and the plek doesn't get lazy or take short cuts and always does the job properly. Not so of apprentices, I find! :28:
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
I generally take the train these days, although I used to do the trip by bike every day (at least in the summer) my XJ is getting a bit old now so i tend to leave it in Cardiff, Newport or Caerphilly, depending on my itinerary. It's on 97000 miles or something now and it's second motor. I must be the only person in the world ever to have worn out an XJ 900 engine...:8:
I generally take the train these days, although I used to do the trip by bike every day (at least in the summer) my XJ is getting a bit old now so i tend to leave it in Cardiff, Newport or Caerphilly, depending on my itinerary. It's on 97000 miles or something now and it's second motor. I must be the only person in the world ever to have worn out an XJ 900 engine...:8:
octavedoctor
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
Yeah, i wasn't disagreeing with you Daz, it's just that we often walk into the workshop and find a note on a repair saying something like "strings - 9-42, action as low as possible and no fret buzz".
The point I was trying to make is that all these terms are highly subjective and that the laws of physics are not up for negotiation whether you are dealing with a human or a Plek machine.
How, for example, do you define in a way that I can understand, what you mean by "medium/heavy attack" or "regular picking". As a technician, i can set the arc relief so that it has a .010 fall at the 8th or 9th fret; I can adjust the action so that the string clearance at the first fret is .35mm and 1.5mm at the 12th. All these are parameters over which I have a measure of control and which lend themselves to measurability. However I cannot measure, or even realistically estimate, a value for the player's attack. When I got my first Mac I did an analysis of the complex maths involved in string vibration and arc relief; one of the things that I discovered was that to prevent the string's excursion arc impinging upon the fret plane (a pre-condition for fret buzz) for a 10% increase in player attack the action would have to be raised by 30%. Also, that the danger point for fret buzz as the players attack exceeds the headroom provided by the action and arc relief is not immediately in front of the fret from which the string is sounding but a point 1/4 to 1/3 along the remaining string length.
My message to players who want a low action then is to learn to play within the parameters you have set because the string needs a certain amount of room in which to vibrate and if you ask for an action height that reduces that room then it's the player's responsibility to limit fret buzz, not the techs. All the tech can do is ensure that the frets are level and sit within 15 microns of each other.
Yeah, i wasn't disagreeing with you Daz, it's just that we often walk into the workshop and find a note on a repair saying something like "strings - 9-42, action as low as possible and no fret buzz".
The point I was trying to make is that all these terms are highly subjective and that the laws of physics are not up for negotiation whether you are dealing with a human or a Plek machine.
How, for example, do you define in a way that I can understand, what you mean by "medium/heavy attack" or "regular picking". As a technician, i can set the arc relief so that it has a .010 fall at the 8th or 9th fret; I can adjust the action so that the string clearance at the first fret is .35mm and 1.5mm at the 12th. All these are parameters over which I have a measure of control and which lend themselves to measurability. However I cannot measure, or even realistically estimate, a value for the player's attack. When I got my first Mac I did an analysis of the complex maths involved in string vibration and arc relief; one of the things that I discovered was that to prevent the string's excursion arc impinging upon the fret plane (a pre-condition for fret buzz) for a 10% increase in player attack the action would have to be raised by 30%. Also, that the danger point for fret buzz as the players attack exceeds the headroom provided by the action and arc relief is not immediately in front of the fret from which the string is sounding but a point 1/4 to 1/3 along the remaining string length.
My message to players who want a low action then is to learn to play within the parameters you have set because the string needs a certain amount of room in which to vibrate and if you ask for an action height that reduces that room then it's the player's responsibility to limit fret buzz, not the techs. All the tech can do is ensure that the frets are level and sit within 15 microns of each other.
DazH
New member
Re: New neck or refret?
hah, it must be fate - I had to call a customer just yesterday to tell him 9-42's are gonna be a bit floppy on his gibby - worked out fine though.
I know what you mean, trying to describe pick attack is a nuisance - I often gauge it by playing with my thumb, which I always interpret as a medium attack (lord knows why, I just do - heh)
No hard feelings, I have geat respect for you & I cant ever see myself going to the extent of using maths to calculate string vibration arc, heh.
hah, it must be fate - I had to call a customer just yesterday to tell him 9-42's are gonna be a bit floppy on his gibby - worked out fine though.
I know what you mean, trying to describe pick attack is a nuisance - I often gauge it by playing with my thumb, which I always interpret as a medium attack (lord knows why, I just do - heh)
No hard feelings, I have geat respect for you & I cant ever see myself going to the extent of using maths to calculate string vibration arc, heh.