New P-rails & triple shot circuit ???

[eclecticsynergy]

One more time….with some feeling

This is a very possible circuit idea if you get past any idea that things have to be just so.
Since switches are connectors, you can use them any way you please. There are multiple possibilities & those possibilities are only limited by a lack of imagination or a fixed mindset.

Having independent volume & tone controls for two PUs with a 4-way blade switch is possible and easy to do by modifying the Tele circuit found on the net.

1st, the controls should be placed before the switch and the switch output should go directly to the Jack

2nd, in addition to separating neck PU’s coil return from its metal cover and reconnecting that cover to ground with a new wire, the ground connections from the neck PU’s control pots need to be moved and reconnected to the 4-way the same place the coil return attaches to. The mod allows the 4-way to remove both the neck PU & its controls from the circuit in the bridge position.
}!€

Good thinking there; grounding the neck controls to the switch so they can be turned off too.
Enabling independent volumes with a four-way is a great trick that others may find very handy.

I too misunderstood your terminology at first.
I took "coil return" to mean the hot lead and couldn't figure how connecting the hot and ground to the same lug could possibly work.
Once I understood what you meant, everything made perfect sense.

Having a term to differentiate the pickup ground wire from the general ground was quite useful here.
Perhaps calling it "coil ground" instead would be less confusing to those (like me) who are less than familiar with electronics lingo.

Finally, which 4-way switch are you using?
Most have the series wiring in position 4, which always felt unnatural to me.
Planning to rewire one of my Teles soon.
Would love to get a switch like yours that gives series coils in position 2 instead.

 

[Imtxn]

The site has rejected all my postals
But, if you search google images for schematic drawings of Tele wired with a 4-way selector you’ll find a few. I had to actually analyze the switch mechanism to understand how works, but the good thing is now i understand all the different simple blade switches. Google shows several circuits. I realized Fender, OGs & Mojo tone are the same
It’s neat how someone designed them..They used one side to manipulate the ground & the other side simultaneously act as input to & output from the switch. The position of the guitar’s selections are chosen by the placement of the bridge between the two sides and the location of the ground connections.
i’m sure once you view the circuits in detail you’ll perceive the differences easily.
but, if you still are unsure use Duncan’s mail to reach me privately. We can work out a method that will get you a screen shot of the same switch.
}!€

 

[GuitarDoc]

Perhaps it would be better to refer to the coil "start" and the coil "finish" wire. We often refer to the start wire of the south coil of a humbucker (green wire) as the "ground" because it usually connects to a ground. But not always, so this would be incorrect to refer to it as the ground. And we usually refer to the start of the north coil (black wire) as the "hot" because it carries the signal to the switch or output jack. But, again, not always. Certainly, there is no "return" wire...using that terminology can only cause confusion. There may be "return" wires in industrial or aircraft electrical (I don't know about that), but not in guitar electronics.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

^Difficult to have a "ground" wire at 30,000 feet

 

[GuitarDoc]

^Difficult to have a "ground" wire at 30,000 feet

Pretty long wire. Expensive.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

And would probably snap under its own weight...

 

[Imtxn]

Like threechords mentioned in the beginning of the thread, that conductor which has been conventionally referred to as a ground because it is connected to the volume pots case is held at zero volts. If you were to disconnect that lead and scope it with reference to the volume pots case or the ring of the jack. You will measure a signal, it will be the same amplitude as the signal delivered from the pickup’s other lead, but 180 degrees out of phase. The reference being the ground plane of the guitar. You can call it whatever you find convenient to help you understand its function in a circuit. But until it’s connected to the guitar’s ground plane I prefer to differentiate.

 

[Imtxn]

If you use a 2p2t switch to phase inverter your pickup, that wire you conveniently call “hot” will connect to ground when you switch it. What do you call it when “ground” becomes the signal sender? Is it still
“the ground”? Is it the hot or a hot wire? The concept is simple as black and white. Using terms to differentiate is useful, but can be confusing if new or different

 

[GuitarDoc]

^ , exactly. That's why I said what I did in my post #23, and why it's best to use the terms "coil start wire" or "coil finish wire", or refer to the Duncan colors of "green, red, or black, white, and plain". We can all understand that.

 

[Imtxn]

The most confusing thing about electronic theory for me was visualising current flows, conventional flow or electron flow, +to- or -to+. I was taught to accept one way and stick to it. However I usually see both sides of the equation simultaneously. And it confuses me. So I’ve adopted terminology which better helps me understand a circuits operation. It is what it is & I’ve adapted.

The electrical polarity induced by the PU corresponds to the direction the strings cross the magnetic plane of that coil & that polarity changes when the string changes direction. A/C voltage!

Now, consider the current flow from that PU’s hot lead during a positive cycle and assume the (-charged) electrons are being pushed through the hot wire, i.e., sending a signal “to” the controls. But you can also say those controls get a signal “from” the hot wire. Depends on your perspective. This is an example of conventional flow(+to-)
At exactly that same moment in time the other end of the PU kill is pulling electrons from the lead connected to that end of the pickup.
No returning flow of electrons occurs if the circuit isn’t complete.
Can you see why I’ve called it a return now.

There is a different way to see something for everyone who looks. Everyone who looks sees things his own way, we simply use the language which facilitates our understanding.

 

[Imtxn]

I’d like to thank all the folks who follow this post for their thoughts and time. If the discussion was tense at times, its ok and even though didn’t ask I learned alot from you, even the humor provoked.

I favour eclecticsynergy’s suggestion, the coilground conductor especially since the term agrees with convention and usage

be the coil luke

 

[GuitarDoc]

The most confusing thing about electronic theory for me was visualising current flows, conventional flow or electron flow, +to- or -to+. I was taught to accept one way and stick to it. However I usually see both sides of the equation simultaneously. And it confuses me. So I’ve adopted terminology which better helps me understand a circuits operation. It is what it is & I’ve adapted.

The electrical polarity induced by the PU corresponds to the direction the strings cross the magnetic plane of that coil & that polarity changes when the string changes direction. A/C voltage!

Now, consider the current flow from that PU’s hot lead during a positive cycle and assume the (-charged) electrons are being pushed through the hot wire, i.e., sending a signal “to” the controls. But you can also say those controls get a signal “from” the hot wire. Depends on your perspective. This is an example of conventional flow(+to-)
At exactly that same moment in time the other end of the PU kill is pulling electrons from the lead connected to that end of the pickup.
No returning flow of electrons occurs if the circuit isn’t complete.
Can you see why I’ve called it a return now.

There is a different way to see something for everyone who looks. Everyone who looks sees things his own way, we simply use the language which facilitates our understanding.

I totally understand what your saying. I have sympathy for you with all of the confusion out there with electronics terminology. I think we've all been there and still are to a certain extent. There is certainly no problem at all in "thinking" with the terminology that helps you understand better. But let's not ADD to that confusion. We're talking about "communication" and using terminology that everyone can, or should learn to, understand for the sake of, uh, communicating. If you grew up in Germany and recently moved to America it may help you to understand better if you think in German, but if you want to effectively "communicate", you'd be better off learning and speaking in English (unless you're in the South, that's a different language down there).

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

Americans... English.... just saying

 

[GuitarDoc]

I agree that American English is one of the most ridiculous languages...too much ambiguity in many of the words. But, unfortunately this is the language of this country and we need to all use it correctly to facilitate communication.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

Let's start with a-l-u-m-i-n-i-u-m....

 

[GuitarDoc]

Or c-o-l-o-n-e-l.
Is this word "read", pronounced reed or red?

 

[Imtxn]

You won’t get any arguments from me. English Language & good communication shouldn’t be used in conjunction with each other.
Maintaining the subject of the forum, lets look at Fender guitars verses partscasters from a purely socialistic viewpoint.
A caster could be made by a luthier with years of experience with all top shelf pieces. But some fools would still consider the instrument inferior to a guitar made in Korea or Mexico licensed by Fender by unknowns and crap parts because it has a decal on it.
It all depends on who’s looking at it and the way they see things.
The language is irrelevant. It’s the idea which is important. And quite frankly, a person may think whatever he wants to make himself happy.
I don’t care
I’ll quote another American who was thoroughly dissed by the English arrogance, “ your mind is like a parachute, won’t work unless its open”.

 

[GuitarDoc]

I love that quote. Very true. Who said it?

 

[Imtxn]

I love that one too, Frank Zappa was credited with it.

My #1 fave is something Winston Curchhill said, “success is an ability, to progress from failure to failure with no lessening of enthusiasm.”
probably not word for word, but you get the idea.

}!€

 

[GuitarDoc]

Or, how about:

"'Courage' is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway.
'Stupidity' is the same.
And that's why life is hard". (Jeremy Goldberg)