New to the world of tone!

Shadow1psc

New member
Hello everyone, I'm new here and I figured this would be as good a place as any to plop my introduction down in so I can convey where I come from, and what I'm looking to learn! I'm a long time musician, sort of a jack of all trades, I play Piano, Drums, Sax, Trombone, Guitar, and others over the years, so I have a fair bit of experience in all styles and sounds. I'd call myself an intermediate to advanced player, and I mostly like to play Progressive/Power/Heavy Metal. My favorite bands are Dream Theater, Symphony X, and Pain of Salvation with a little Iced Earth, Evergrey and Sonata Arctica for good measure. I love the classic as much as the modern (who doesn't love Iron Maiden?!), and I'm no snob or purist to any one style, I love a wide range of sounds.

So this brings me to my first problem! I'd call myself a decent musician, but a complete tonal newb. I don't plan on being a live musician really, I have my home hobbyist project studio, and I'd like to think of my goal in life as being close to the project Ayreon. I love music, love to create and share, would like to eventually produce material, but I don't plan to take the gamble that is becoming a career musician. As much as I'm a jack of all trades in music, I seem to be that way in other things in life.

So being a tonal newb, but knowing I only desire a good studio/low to mid volume/headphones sound, I bought a Pod X3 Live awhile back (foot control is what brought me over a regular Pod X3). I'm running it directly into an Mbox 2 via SPDIF for recording, and an EMU 1212m for recreational playing, both of which either go to my AKG 240s or my studio monitors (I'll have to grab the model if you guys want em later), but overall I think I get a decent sound.

My guitars are (all stock hardware):
Ibanez RG 470 (mij) (E Standard)
Ibanez RG 4EX1 (mii) (Eb Standard)
Charvel Model 5 (mij) (D Standard)
Esp Horizon NT (mij) (Drop D)(not sure if original or II, I'll have to get back to you on that)

Those are my 'mid to mid high' guitars, I've got some other dinky guitars from my early days (strat with some SD Hot Rails Iron Maiden type config, stock OLP MM1), and I've had varying success with the Charvel and the 4EX1. Those have been my main axes, the 470 and the ESP are new acquires, and I figured it's time to do two things:

1) Set up each guitar with it's own sound bank for playing, with a rhythm, lead, clean rhythm and modulated rhythm each, because just one set of styles for each isn't going to do each individual guitar justice, and

2) Start investigating aftermarket pickup considerations for each guitar.

This journey I would imagine starts with the question "What sound are you trying to get out of your guitar(s)?" Well, as described, I'm a tonal newb, and my descriptors may be off, so first and foremost, I love John Petrucci's tone. I love playing Dream Theater songs, and I'd say the epitome of what I want in at least one guitar is a sound like The Count of Tuscany. I like the vintage, yet ultra clarity he gets on all channels there. The 'sparkly' (and probably acoustic) clean of the intro, the hot, screaming tone in the lead, and the tight rhythm.

This would be goal number one, and I'd say I've come close with the clean, near with the rhythm, but the lead keeps escaping me. I like my lead tone, but when I compare it to that opening solo, it's missing some of that edge, and I'm not sure if that's technique, amp/effects, or pickups. I realize I'll probably need some audio evidence to contribute, so I'll probably do a couple of comparisons in Pro Tools later and upload for your diagnosis.

I could type so much more about what I like/dislike in each guitar/pickup position and I'll probably get to that when I get home so there's a more accurate description for what I'm lacking, and maybe that will help with recommendations of which pickups may fill the gaps in my tonal life. I've heard great things about all manner of pickups like WCR, BKP, SD (of course, I even own some of these in the aforementioned strat!) and others who's names don't stick as well, but I recognize in reading other posts.

So that's my intro, and before my post becomes even more unbearably long, I'll stop there for now and welcome any advice, recommendations and general knowledge you all may wish to impart!
 
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Re: New to the world of tone!

Welcome, and I hope you're ready for a lifetime of searching! :)

The first step, as far as I see it, is to get your tone OUT of the box and INTO the room. In other words, get an amp if you can. So much of your tone and how you sit in a mix is dependent on how your amp interacts with the room.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

Well, I record direct digital ALL my instruments for now. I have some really great VSTs that make it possible. I realize a lot of great tone comes from tube amps/cranking a nice amp and rolling back gain/treble, but unfortunately I don't have that liberty yet (I'm in the middle of trying to buy a house, and as soon as I do that I can start looking into really nice amps for mid level noise playing/recording.

For now, I'm really stuck to low level/digital recording, and I've had nice results because the POD is a beast in direct digital recording (doesn't quite compare to any of the real things, but for what it is at the price level it's at and what it is meant for, I love it). So for now, amps are out of the equation (though I would love a nice tube amp later in life).
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

Here's a cover I did last year. I believe I was using the Model 5, and near the same POD settings I am now, I figure this will help a little. I'll do some more noodling as the week goes on with my 470 and Model 5, I'll put my ESP to work next week I think. I'm listening to this on my laptop, I don't remember if the mix was decent, but you should be able to hear what I'm working with so far.
 
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Re: New to the world of tone!

Bumpification with a question; When shaping my sound from an amp, how do I get the nice crunch, yet defined sound when palm muting power chords without the leftover... I guess the only way to describe it is high end annoying dead noise? I tried turning down each control separately, and tried messing with them in unison, but I can't seem to knock it for the Line 6 'insane' type. I've basically got a dual tone going with a Line 6 insane and another Line 6 heavy that mesh well, but I'm just getting this ugly palm muted sound. I love the clarity I'm getting in open chords and the thickness of everything not palm muted for rhythm though. Suggestions?
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

If you have explore every option from that preamp, and tried a variety of guitars, you may already assume that this pre is not capable; I however, have no experience with it to say.
The problem with highs is that, while annoying, that's where you get sort of 'the sound and feeling of gain'......someone explain this better plz....
Bump for those vst plugins. They are sure to help, if you stay the direct in route.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

I don't VST my guitars, it all comes from the POD. I'd probably get more help on that particular issue if I joined the POD community, but I digress. My original intent was to inquire about great pickups for a very progressive tone that I can also get ripping, soaring leads from.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

Sorry if I was confused, it appeared you were last concerned about your pod.
Based on the ^^^ I think it a fair reminder that more tone will come from the stuff after the guitar.
I believe many will concur.

If we are turning the thread into something more subjective to opinion, put me down for dimarzio tonezone with an a8 in the bridge.
Best to try them, experience them.

Tonezone is a love it or hate it pickup.
Others may recommend something easy to love: Paf pro. Or Duncan C8.

Experiment with what makes up total pot values.
250k pots to 1meg pots will change the way any pickup sounds.
(tone cap discussion up for grabs).

Other things will come into play. There were guitars I've built for the same described specification, but couldn't achieve the end result due to flimsy or undergrade metals or the lack of bone touching string.
Saddles, bridges, nuts and tuners all affect your sound and are upgrades that are on the table.

I'll quit there, as I'm still convinced that even with the greatest guitar in the world, one is nothing without a decent amp.

Edit:this is not in offense to your pod, mind you. Just reitteration of my personal playing priorities.

Aw...didn't even get to talk about wood types and grades...
Or bridge types...
 
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Re: New to the world of tone!

Well, I figure with direct recording in mind, the POD will get me any amp tone (or close to, obviously not exact) that I want; I've done a pretty good job replicating lots of leads and rhythms. My initial example (The Count of Tuscany's opening solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4yzYKIiV9Y 0:30) is something I get really close to, but there's just... a bite, or hotness to it that I'm not quite getting, and I wasn't sure if it's something a pickup would help push me over the edge, or maybe there's more. I'll post a sound clip tomorrow of my tone.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

I'm interested to hear what you plan on doing with live shows. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think you can get some fantastic sounds these days with all of the digital technology out there. For me, however, a lot of the feel of playing guitar live comes from an amp.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

Well, I figure with direct recording in mind, the POD will get me any amp tone (or close to, obviously not exact) that I want; I've done a pretty good job replicating lots of leads and rhythms. My initial example (The Count of Tuscany's opening solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4yzYKIiV9Y 0:30) is something I get really close to, but there's just... a bite, or hotness to it that I'm not quite getting, and I wasn't sure if it's something a pickup would help push me over the edge, or maybe there's more. I'll post a sound clip tomorrow of my tone.

...sure man, why not.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/dimarzio-john-petrucci-pickup-set

that should do it...
 
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Re: New to the world of tone!

So I believe it turns out that on The Count of Tuscany, John got to use a Mesa Boogie Mark V, and his new BFR... so that explains why that sound probably eludes me out of others. Hopefully I'll get some sound clips up later, and I'll post what my 'amps' look like settings-wise!
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10872332

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10872331

Here's a sample. I'm using the RG 470 here, the rhythm part is being played with Neck+Middle pickup, and I did the solo with the same settings once on the bridge, once on the neck. I noticed I had to work a lot harder to make the bridge sound as good, but the neck (what I would traditionally use to solo) makes the notes a little less aggressive lower on the scale. Compare that to The original youtube link I posted. I'm pretty happy with the clean sound, but I can't seem to hit the sweet spot on that solo. Amp settings to come.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

Here's my lead tone (signal chain in the first pic):

AmpGate.jpg

CabMic.jpg

Comp.jpg

Delay.jpg

Stomp.jpg

Verb.jpg


I made this last year, and I haven't thought to change anything since learning more about shaping tone, but right off the bat I can see that I probably have too many pedals going. I don't know what I should take off, what I should leave, and what I might reshape so as to hit that goal mark.

TBH it seemed to work perfectly with the bridge pickup as long as I really focused on my technique, it was just missing that edge that JP has, and I'm not sure if that's something his pickups push him over the edge in or not (hence why I'm here :D)

-edit-
I think my rhythm is pretty great, at least, I love it where it's at. It may not be spot on, but if anyone has suggestions for that, or wants to see my settings for whatever reason, I will post them as well!
 
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Re: New to the world of tone!

Alot of that dream theatre tone not only comes from actual tube amps but also double tracking and nice studio treatment. You can try some free vsts such as guitar rig free and amplitube free (both you can demo all the amps) to hear what you may not get out of your POD on some amp models. You may also want to try some dual tone stuff if you arent already with your pod i found using POD Farm this helped thicken and widen the tone.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

I've slowly been getting into dual tone. And yeah, that Mark V/real tubes are probably delivering that last bit of hotness that I don't quite get. The production on BCSL is absolutely sick. I've tried messing with Amplitube and Guitar Rig, but I don't feel like they stack up to the Pod X3, unless they've had any new offerings in the last couple years.
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

I played a couple of Line 6 POD line products in the past. And I have the Line6 GX, so I'm not dissing or making fun here.
But I have never been able to get the same dynamics out of a line6 type amp (soft or hardware) as I do with my tube amps (JCM900 and a Class 5, nothing fancy).
I don't think software/hardware simulation does voltage fluctuations like a tube amp does.
It's the imperfection in the components that make tube amps sing. Components in older amps are of even lesser quality then modern ones that is why some people like vintage amps.
You can copy them with new components, but it will not sound exactly the same.

Just my view on why I like real tubes. It's nice to be able to play on headphones when people sleep etc. That is why I have a Line6 GX b.t.w. and it's still a nice toy!!!
 
Re: New to the world of tone!

No doubt real tube amps are class (I love to crank one, I just can't in my current living situation). If I were to play live, I'd spring for a Mesa in a heartbeat. For recording, the X3 kicks ass all around the place with it's versatility for the price imo. You just have to spend a lot more time really tweaking it. Amp/cab/mic + EQ make the biggest differences from the get go, then you can add (or subtract) flavor with effects.
 
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