No-Load pots - No Crap Talk

[ItsaBass]

It doesn't matter. Because all pots vary in how much max resistance there is. Say you have a 250k tone that meters 225k on 10 then you make a no load pot that metered 260k before you chopped the strip.. Now when you turn down ur new homemade pot to 9.5 and the cap pops into the circuit, it's at 245k - higher than what many regular tone pots will be on 10. If you're particular about having '10' after you turn down past ur no load detent, then just use a pot that meters high, or use a 300k pot. Another one of the benefits that I like from no loads is that I always use 250k. That way I know on 10 it will be brighter than a regular 500k pot on 10 but when I turn it down to 9 or 8, I will be able to notice some darkening. Effectively cutting out the useless portion of the top part of a 500k tone's sweep. There is some 'slight' coloration at the top part of a 500k tone's sweep that you can barely hear in comparison to out of the circuit, but it's mostly useless to me if I want to actually hear some darkening.

This point is already understood, but the question is about where you are on your taper curve before the pot jumps to no load. 200, 250, or 300 K measured value doesn’t really matter that much in regards to the question, because it’s assuming identical values between the two pots (one regular, on no load). In other words, do the wafers in no load pots compress the normal 1–10 range into a shorter resistance element, or do they just use the same length element, and chop off the end of it to make room for the bypass (effectively the same as scraping it off yourself).

The question is about whether flipping between positions 1 and 2 on an Esquire (or with a switch like the OP’s), with the tone knob fully up, is the same as clicking between full up and no load on a no load pot.

Why do I ask? Because it seems, anecdotally, to me that a lot of people report an easily audible difference between full up and no load...but not so many report a difference between a tone knob at full dime and a tone pot bypass. I have a theory that this might be because full up on a no load pot is not as high as full up on a regular pot, i.e. no loads never reach their fully rated resistance, except by being out of spec (as you brought up). In other words, I’m not so sure no load pots compress the taper along the wafer element’s arc, meaning the average resistance of a batch of them would always be lower than the rated value.

If the pot jumps to the equivalent of “normal 9” when coming down from no load, then of course there will be a more audible difference than if it jumps to “normal 10.” There’s a clearly audible difference between 10 and 9 on a standard audio taper pot. Not extreme...but easy to hear, even in a mix, IME. But between “normal 10” and no load? Not in my tests, for real world mixes.

 

[Lewguitar]

To answer this part, it would be 9 or 9.5 on a normal pot when clicked in to the circuit, at least from what I can tell from measurements. I only every bought one no-load. Every other one I used I made by opening it and cutting the trace right before the wiper.

And it's OK that it's 9 or 9.5 when rolled down and clicked in (though I never felt a click myself) because at that point, rolling off with the tone control is wanted. If it's on 10, nope.

They mostly became popular in the 80's when the Superstrats were the rage. Guys wanted the single volume control feel and bite but have the tone control there so their techs would cut the trace, or in some cases just disconnect the thing (Angus Young's SG's are like that).

I've used nail polish too. Disassembled the pot and painted over the last little bit of the trace. That works too. I don't do that anymore though and I don't have a no-load tone pot in any guitar I own.

 

[ErikH]

No, you would not have a click if making your own no-load pots, and of course you wouldn't be getting "10" right before you get to no load. You'd go from no load right to 9.5 (approximately).

But the no load pots I've tried have had a click at the end.

The only one that had a click that I could feel was the one I purchased, yes. The ones I made I never felt the click.

When making your own, the resistance value at the end of the trace before the cut doesn't change. It remains the same before and after the cut. So, the new "10" is the same as 9 or 9.5 without cutting the trace. Pots that are built as no-load probably have the same trace all the way through with the additional click at wide open to remove it from the circuit.

 

[GuitarDoc]

I do not understand this post at all? I also have a bypass toggle on the 500k cts tone pot and .044 orange drop cap in one of my guitars and I can clearly hear the difference between "in" and "out." It is subtle but definitely real

What you're saying is that the tone CAP makes a difference, even when the pot is on 10. I agree, especially if you're using a .044uf cap. And it would have been beneficial in my op if I had said that I normally use 500-550k pots with .010uf caps. My bad. That would have been very important info to include.

Your admission that even with a .044uf cap "it is subtle", means that you are looking/listening for it in a controlled environment. Not AT ALL what I said. You think you can still hear that "subtle" difference when you're gigging with a band? That was my point in my op. Didn't I say..."For all practical purposes (meaning what you hear when you are giging)"?

So: if you can't hear it, why do you keep installing the switches in your guitar?

Are you serious? You think I install tone bypass switches to switch between tone on 10 and tone out of circuit? Dude!! Seriously?!!! What's wrong with you? You're criticising ME for YOUR mental deficiencies? ItsaBass got it spot on in his post #13. You can either reread his post or you can be lazy and ask me to explain it to you in detail. (which I won't because it has already been explained and because it is too obvious, but you can ask me anyway).

And: if you can't hear it why does that mean no one else can hear it? My wife can smell things I cannot smell. For a long time I thought she was full of BS. But it has become clear over the years that her sense of smell is much more keen than mine. And my hearing is much more sensitive than hers.

I was speaking in generalities.....very accurate generalities by the way. But if you are an exception, more power to you. I'll invite you to come over to tell me when my neighbor's cat farts three doors down during rush-hour traffic.

Finally: what does any of this have to do with expensive cars?

As far as you being unable to understand my metafore, all that means is that you have a deficiency in your abstract reasoning ability, it doesn't mean you don't have a very acute hearing.

I am a very practical/thrifty/cheap dude. The guitar I am talking about is a "Gibson" MARAUDER for cripes sake! No corks are sniffed here!

Thank goodness you didn't say it was an original Gibson '59 LP Standard. But point made, anyway. (You only drive a Tesla).


If I remember correctly, you have made some good contributions to the forum. Why are you trying so hard to destroy your credibility?

 

[ErikH]

I've used nail polish too. Disassembled the pot and painted over the last little bit of the trace. That works too. I don't do that anymore though and I don't have a no-load tone pot in any guitar I own.

I did that too once with nail polish. The only thing I worried about was it wearing off when I didn't want it to so I went with the "cut the trace" method. A couple of my guitars don't even have a tone pot (my Frankenstrats). Everything else does.

 

[Lewguitar]

I did that too once with nail polish. The only thing I worried about was it wearing off when I didn't want it to so I went with the "cut the trace" method. A couple of my guitars don't even have a tone pot (my Frankenstrats). Everything else does.

I need a tone control for my bridge pickup. I don't really need one for my neck pickup so three of my guitars (my three favorites) have it only on the bridge pickup.

 

[ErikH]

I need a tone control for my bridge pickup. I don't really need one for my neck pickup so three of my guitars (my three favorites) have it only on the bridge pickup.

I did that on my Les Paul. I love how more open and present it made the neck pickup ('57 Classic). A really good setup.

 

[Lewguitar]

I did that on my Les Paul. I love how more open and present it made the neck pickup ('57 Classic). A really good setup.

I guess an oscilloscope doesn't hear that? But my 70 year old, almost worn out, ears sure can. :duh:

 

[Clint 55]

This point is already understood, but the question is about where you are on your taper curve before the pot jumps to no load. 200, 250, or 300 K measured value doesn’t really matter that much in regards to the question, because it’s assuming identical values between the two pots (one regular, on no load). In other words, do the wafers in no load pots compress the normal 1–10 range into a shorter resistance element, or do they just use the same length element, and chop off the end of it to make room for the bypass (effectively the same as scraping it off yourself).

The question is about whether flipping between positions 1 and 2 on an Esquire (or with a switch like the OP’s), with the tone knob fully up, is the same as clicking between full up and no load on a no load pot.

Why do I ask? Because it seems, anecdotally, to me that a lot of people report an easily audible difference between full up and no load...but not so many report a difference between a tone knob at full dime and a tone pot bypass. I have a theory that this might be because full up on a no load pot is not as high as full up on a regular pot, i.e. no loads never reach their fully rated resistance, except by being out of spec (as you brought up). In other words, I’m not so sure no load pots compress the taper along the wafer element’s arc, meaning the average resistance of a batch of them would always be lower than the rated value.

If the pot jumps to the equivalent of “normal 9” when coming down from no load, then of course there will be a more audible difference than if it jumps to “normal 10.” There’s a clearly audible difference between 10 and 9 on a standard audio taper pot. Not extreme...but easy to hear, even in a mix, IME. But between “normal 10” and no load? Not in my tests, for real world mixes.

I see what you're saying. That could be an issue either using a pre-manufactured or home-modified no load tone pot that goes from the detent immediately down to say 200k. But again, it doesn't matter, because it's possible to make the transition from detent to 9 as abrupt or seamless as you could possibly want. Want a really abrupt drop off from detent to high cut? Use an 100k or 50k pot! Want a seamless transition? Use a 250k pot that meters high. Or a 300k pot. Or even a 330k pot. Your setting on 9 with the cap in the circuit on a home made 330k no load tone pot will unquestioningly be higher than a regular 250k tone pot on 10.

 

[ItsaBass]

I see what you're saying. That could be an issue either using a pre-manufactured or home-modified no load tone pot that goes from the detent immediately down to say 200k. But again, it doesn't matter, because it's possible to make the transition from detent to 9 as abrupt or seamless as you could possibly want. Want a really abrupt drop off from detent to high cut? Use an 100k or 50k pot! Want a seamless transition? Use a 250k pot that meters high. Or a 300k pot. Or even a 330k pot. Your setting on 9 with the cap in the circuit on a home made 330k no load tone pot will unquestioningly be higher than a regular 250k tone pot on 10.

I know how to get what I want from a pot; it isn’t the issue. I am theorizing as to why there is apparently such a jump with no load pots, vs a tone pot bypass with a normal pot. My theory is that no load pots sacrifice “normal 10” in order to get no load. Practically speaking, this would just mean that no load pots on average trend a bit lower in value than their marked resistance, vs. regular pots. True or not, I don’t know, hence the question.

Also, I am speaking solely about manufactured no load pots, not homemade (which, of course, will have a “jump,” and can be very specifically tailored to ones desired specs).

As mentioned before, I myself opt for high value pots instead of no loads. But I’m trying to figure out why people hear what they hear in a no load pot – a district jump from full up to no load – when, IME, such a jump is not present with a tone bypass switch.

 

[Clint 55]

I'm sure that's possible.

 

[nexion218]

pcorn:pcorn:pcorn:

 

[Lewguitar]

I know how to get what I want from a pot; it isn’t the issue. I am theorizing as to why there is apparently such a jump with no load pots, vs a tone pot bypass with a normal pot. My theory is that no load pots sacrifice “normal 10” in order to get no load. Practically speaking, this would just mean that no load pots on average trend a bit lower in value than their marked resistance, vs. regular pots. True or not, I don’t know, hence the question.

Also, I am speaking solely about manufactured no load pots, not homemade (which, of course, will have a “jump,” and can be very specifically tailored to ones desired specs).

As mentioned before, I myself opt for high value pots instead of no loads. But I’m trying to figure out why people hear what they hear in a no load pot – a district jump from full up to no load – when, IME, such a jump is not present with a tone bypass switch.

I think when it comes to home made no load pots, you're 100% right.

If part of the resistor strip is missing in the area where "8 -10" would be, the tone control never gets to "10". Never has enough resistance to block some of the treble from escaping the circuit through the tone pot to ground.

It gets turned up to maybe 8 (maybe 200K or 220K on a 250K pot?) and then the last 10 or 20% of what used to be a 250K resistor is gone and with it the connection so that the tone control is removed from the circuit before the sound of the tone control being at 9 or 10 can occur.

I don't know the situation with factory made no load pots.

Someone who has one ought to measure the resistance just before the wiper hits the end that's missing and which breaks the connection.

 

[Clint 55]

Never has enough resistance to block some of the treble from escaping the circuit through the tone pot to ground.

No regular tone pot ever has enough resistance to block all the treble from going to ground. It's all about what you're happy with for the sound and taper. I use homemade 250k no load tone pots which meter around 200 or 220k on 9 because I like being able to hear a subtle change between 10 and 9. I play jazz so I like the bright portion of the sweep up around 7-9, too. I don't need more of a sweep at the top before the detent. If I did, I would use a homemade 300k no load tone pot.

 

[Lewguitar]

No regular tone pot ever has enough resistance to block all the treble from going to ground. It's all about what you're happy with for the sound and taper. I use homemade 250k no load tone pots which meter around 200 or 220k on 9 because I like being able to hear a subtle change between 10 and 9. I play jazz so I like the bright portion of the sweep up around 7-9, too. I don't need more of a sweep at the top before the detent. If I did, I would use a homemade 300k no load tone pot.

You're right. That's why when I disconnect the 500K tone pot from the neck pickup on my PRS I hear a nice improvement (for me) in clarity.

 

[ToneFiddler]

All parts 500k no load pot:
last measured resistance: 493 kOhm. that's 1,6% off

i see no advantage of a no load pot to a push pull pot switchable tone control unless you cannot have the height of the push pull knop because of (for example) the trem arm.

and if your using 250k vol + 250k with 47nF for tone control and disconnect the the tone control (via a no load pot) it will be more or less like a 500k vol. + 500k tone circuit on 10. And the difference from 250k pots (singlecoil style) to 500k pots (humbucker style) is not so subtle. could be the difference between earpiercing and muddy.

and i agree the effect with 10nF tone cap and a no load pot is less.

 

[Lewguitar]

I see no advantage of a no load pot to a push pull pot switchable tone control unless you cannot have the height of the push pull knop because of (for example) the trem arm

For me, I think turning a knob I've already got my fingers on is easier than pulling up on that knob and then pushing it back down and then turning it. That's two or three extra steps.

I'm sure if you're used to that it works fine tho. Whatever's easiest for you, right?

I used to date a Japanese lady. She didn't speak English fluently and I spoke no Japanese.

I took her to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and the waitress asked if we'd like chop sticks.

My friend shook her head no.

When the waitress left I asked my friend why she preferred a fork.

She said: "It easier!"

 

[ToneFiddler]

ok now i see 2 reasons

and a spectrum analyzer would be a much better tool than an oszi for this purpose anyway!!!

 

[Artie]

ok now i see 2 reasons

and a spectrum analyzer would be a much better tool than an oszi for this purpose anyway!!!

That could be easier than you think. There's free DAW software out there that includes SA plug-ins. You'd just want a reasonably decent interface, like a Focusrite, or similar, and you could easily "see" the affect. If you have a non-free DAW, even better. I may have to try this. Item #237 on my to-do list. o

 

[ToneFiddler]

yes that should work, but we don't want to go down that road, at least not in this thread.
just wanted to mess with the oszi statement in the OP