No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

ImmortalSix said:
It's explained thoroughly here

In short, it's not about rosewood or ebony, it's about The Lacey Act, and Gibson failing to comply with it.

The failure to comply is basically a result of insufficient / bad export and import documentation and paperwork.

Everyone who touched the wood classified it differently, and usually in the most beneficial way for themselves. The discrepancy of the classifications as the wood traveled from its source to Gibson leads authorities to think there's something fishy going on.

Read that link, it explains it better than I am currently.
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Im aware of most of this barring some details in the article, however it does not answer my question.

They have not been charged with any crime, the wood they had was seized. It doesn't say anything about further purchase/import. My only speculation based on that article is that Gibson needs the precut wood at a certain thickness for fingerboards..which may be illegal for import.

Either that or they are just so scared they said the hell with it. The article states they are trying to get their million $ worth of wood back, however Gibson is plenty large enough and financially solvent enough to be able to import more, legally, while trying to regain the original wood.

Again ...everyone else is doing fine importing the wood, so Gibson SHOULD be able to do so as long as its done at the proper thickness and with proper documentation...but they don't seem to be doing so...instead they are selling mostly garbage fingerboards, when they really don't have to (assuming all facts as presented are correct).
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

JeffB said:
They have not been charged with any crime, the wood they had was seized. It doesn't say anything about further purchase/import. My only speculation based on that article is that Gibson needs the precut wood at a certain thickness for fingerboards..which may be illegal for import.
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The way I understood it now is that the thicker blanks you would have needed to make fingerboards with US workers are simply more expensive then either the thinner wood or the preshaped fingerboards. There are more custom charges on it (as in export charges on part of India, not import duties).

Gibson then "solved" the problem by falsely declaring the wood to get what they wanted cheaper.

That's the reason why Gibson is in trouble, while the other manufacturers don't face the same problem. They simply pay whatever India wants for the stuff they want, regardless of whether the Indian export law makes any sense or not.

In the 2009 case Gibson seems to have gone out of their way to ignore the otherwise well known problem that government control over wood exports had broken down in Madagascar at the time. So they just got the first batch from anybody waving some kind of however unlikely valid paper.

I see no foul play here except on part of Gibson and the people who were willing to back Gibson's foul play with the matching paperwork.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

uOpt said:
The way I understood it now is that the thicker blanks you would have needed to make fingerboards with US workers are simply more expensive then either the thinner wood or the preshaped fingerboards. There are more custom charges on it (as in export charges on part of India, not import duties).

Gibson then "solved" the problem by falsely declaring the wood to get what they wanted cheaper.

That's the reason why Gibson is in trouble, while the other manufacturers don't face the same problem. They simply pay whatever India wants for the stuff they want, regardless of whether the Indian export law makes any sense or not.

In the 2009 case Gibson seems to have gone out of their way to ignore the otherwise well known problem that government control over wood exports had broken down in Madagascar at the time. So they just got the first batch from anybody waving some kind of however unlikely valid paper.

I see no foul play here except on part of Gibson and the people who were willing to back Gibson's foul play with the matching paperwork.
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If this is the case why were they not charged with any wrongdoing? The Govt would have had plenty of time to work up this case, and charge them.

If they could not prove the wrongdoing, OK..And now I can see why Gibson is now using all this "alternative" wood with a huge price increase for future imports. I cannot speak to this pressed fiberboard stuff on Customs but I can tell from my experience in traditional archery, they are using some very poor substitutes for fingerboard woods on their lower priced guitars from a quality/durability/longevity standpoint. Stuff bowyers only use as decorative accents and veneers that are not susceptible to wear & tear and are sealed against the elements/moisture.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

JeffB said:
If this is the case why were they not charged with any wrongdoing? The Govt would have had plenty of time to work up this case, and charge them.
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This is fog-throwing on part of Gibson.

Import violations don't necessarily go along with charges. Illegally imported goods will be confiscated and you don't have the charge the person with a crime. You might (for smuggling etc) but you don't have to. In most cases the loss of the materials is considered punishment enough.

Consider this case: I come back from Germany and I bring something that I'm not allowed to bring into the US such as untreated meat.

The little Jack Russel terrier in Boston terminal E finds the meat. What happens? The meat is seized. Will they charge me with anything? No. Not worth the trouble.

You can sue the government if you want the stuff back and you think that the seizure wasn't in accordance with the law. But Gibson throws fog on this one, too. Did they tell anybody where they have filed the lawsuit against the US? I haven't seen it. All I see is nebulous claims that it is "held up". Not very convincing.

In any case, wrong paperwork to make a thing fall into a different customs class than it should is smuggling and seizure of the materials is legal, there isn't much chance to get it back. The better question is: did Gibson sue the export company that came up with the incorrect paperwork? I don't see any evidence of it, nor claims in the press.

In the 2009 case it's even more clear. The wood was illegally harvested. Gibson won't get it back. They can sue their supplier which caused the seizure. Did they?
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

My understanding is Gibson was warned before, and based upon that warning they should have taken further steps to ensure they weren't getting illegal wood.

PRS realized this potential problem, so they made changes, harvesting Ebony and Rosewood from certified sources. In some countries mother of pearl and abalone may be illegal in import or export, so PRS came up with the redesigned birds made of acrylic material.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

Richilite, I believe, is more or less the same as the micarta (sp?) used on my Martin D16's fingerboard. It feels great, the tone is classic Martin. It's a shame this change came about because of legal problems, but I don't think it would hurt the guitar's playability or tone.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

the guy who invented fire said:
Don't ***** about Gibson...contact your local government and tell them you think it sucks what Gibson has had to do in order to keep the doors open and keep producing guitars!
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While your are at it contact your local Henry and ask him why he gave $360,000.00 worth of guitars to the coalition that certifies his off shore wood for import and why he pays them a healthy sum as a contracted advisor for Gibson Guitars? Some call that a conflict of interest. I call it trying to subvert the law. I notice that Fender didn't do those kinds of things and they don't seem to be having any problems what so ever with my Local or Federal governments.
 
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Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

At the end of the day, this is just further BS from Gibson. Wether or not the feds have anything to do with it, Gibson has been swapping quality for crap for years, and raising the price in the process. They are a despicable company that represents the worst in America.

Gibson's heritage is dead and buried, and the pine in the box is probably better than what they are making guitars out of. The Frehley is a great example - a Repro of a 70's guitar without the same wood in the neck? FAIL - no excuse.

You CAN get ebony if you do it right, just like you can get a machine gun. The bottom line is they will scape goat the gov, when they are (very possibly) in hot water for just being too damm lazy to care at 4k a pop.

Eff you Henry. I'm not buying another guitar from you ever.

(easy to say of course, I have three....Brazillian rosewood, Honduran Mahogany - ahhh)
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

voggin said:
Richilite, I believe, is more or less the same as the micarta (sp?) used on my Martin D16's fingerboard. It feels great, the tone is classic Martin. It's a shame this change came about because of legal problems, but I don't think it would hurt the guitar's playability or tone.
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I personally love me some Micarta (in knife grips...). I can absolutely see it as being excellent.

Had Gibson CHOSE to do this as an effort to be green, reduce costs to the consumers, etc...and demonstrate the awesome tone and feel, I'd be cool.

But Gibson had an opportunity to cheapen while raising the price. Nope.

And baked maple? WTF???? Idiots.


The Dumb@$$es that run that company can't seem to figure out that the deep dark board is part of the sexy on a Black Beauty?


Henry and his crones are RUINERS.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

Lame. Makes me glad to have the black beauty that I have, even if it is just an '83 Norlin.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

I think even if Gibson starts making the LPs in China, they still would charge more money ( remember celestion)
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

Jackson Custom Shop SweeTones, FTW.
 
Re: No more ebony on newer LP Customs?

Greed,Opportunity knocked,Gibson answered.The consumer pays.Effn cardboard guitars being served up for 4K.
 
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