NOS tubes...

Re: NOS tubes...

jones said:
I upgraded the amp with a point to point kit from Metroamp, before he switched to only selling pre made amps. It has sozo vintage style caps, and some nos AB resistors in certain places. The filter caps were reduced to vintage spec as well. The amp sounds wayyyyy better with old tubes. But all mine are micrphonic. I need to learn the date codes perhaps. I have some IEC branded mullards, and some mullard shield branded tubes too. I have a few Philips branded mullards as well. I have a sylvania branded GZ34 from blackburn. I was using Phillips 6l6gc, but switched to some Chinese KT66, the frequency response is more suited to the amp, but I lose some of the sweetness of the Phillips. I didn't know about the IEC bit, just thought it was another brand, so there ya go. I also have some Sylvania US made 12AX7 that sound nice, but are microphonic...


Maybe if I just pony up for a few well tested mullards I'd be set. Microphonics are only a huge problem in in V1 with the tubes I have.
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A metroamp kit you say... I bought one of his upgrade kits as well, but I did something a little different with it...

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=189673
 
Re: NOS tubes...

jones said:
I upgraded the amp with a point to point kit from Metroamp, before he switched to only selling pre made amps. It has sozo vintage style caps, and some nos AB resistors in certain places. The filter caps were reduced to vintage spec as well. The amp sounds wayyyyy better with old tubes. But all mine are micrphonic. I need to learn the date codes perhaps. I have some IEC branded mullards, and some mullard shield branded tubes too. I have a few Philips branded mullards as well. I have a sylvania branded GZ34 from blackburn. I was using Phillips 6l6gc, but switched to some Chinese KT66, the frequency response is more suited to the amp, but I lose some of the sweetness of the Phillips. I didn't know about the IEC bit, just thought it was another brand, so there ya go. I also have some Sylvania US made 12AX7 that sound nice, but are microphonic...


Maybe if I just pony up for a few well tested mullards I'd be set. Microphonics are only a huge problem in in V1 with the tubes I have.
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Yeah, unfortunately just the shield doesn't indicate the date, because they started adding that again late in the piece, so it comes down to date codes. The rebrands are a good indication too, because that seemed to be happening at the height of production, around the early 60s. That's when Mullard were making their best stuff. If you find a Mullard branded for Eico, and it has plenty of juice left, grab it, because they were making those for Eico in the early 60s.

Did you try the SED's from the St Petersburg factory for 6L6s? They're probably the best made current production tubes.




Cheers......................................... wahwah
 
Re: NOS tubes...

I don't think old ones hold any magic, and I think they are often worse than just getting a new one. I only go with NOS tubes when the tubes I need are no longer made. Ampeg V series amps have one that was only available NOS last I checked. 6K11, maybe?

What do I do with old tubes? Sell them for lots of money to people who think they are worth it. I sold the Magnavox 7027A's from my V4 for $200, because I knew some guy would be into that ****. Three tested like new, and one tested at 80 percent. I put in new 6L6's and couldn't tell the difference, because there isn't one with Ampeg V series amps. I am an Ampeg lover if there ever was one, but I cannot see obsessing over having 7027's when 6L6's are effectively the same when used in a V series amp. (They don't use the extra pins on the 7027A's, so 6L6's are a direct, drop-in, no-changes-required tube.) I sold the rest of the tubes from that amp for $80 or $100, and was able to afford to complete retube the whole thing with fresh ones and get it serviced afterward with the money. It sounded great.

A tube tester is a good thing to have, because you can give potential buyers the test results (not to mention that you can save yourself lots of money on unnecessary tube changes based on a time schedule rather than on actual tube condition).
 
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Re: NOS tubes...

ItsaBass said:
I don't think old ones hold any magic, and I think they are often worse than just getting a new one. I only go with NOS tubes when the tubes I need are no longer made. Ampeg V series amps have one that was only available NOS last I checked. 6K11, maybe?

What do I do with old tubes? Sell them for lots of money to people who think they are worth it. I sold the Magnavox 7027A's from my V4 for $200, because I knew some guy would be into that ****. Three tested like new, and one tested at 80 percent. I put in new 6L6's and couldn't tell the difference, because there isn't one with Ampeg V series amps. I am an Ampeg lover if there ever was one, but I cannot see obsessing over having 7027's when 6L6's are effectively the same when used in a V series amp. (They don't use the extra pins on the 7027A's, so 6L6's are a direct, drop-in, no-changes-required tube.) I sold the rest of the tubes from that amp for $80 or $100, and was able to afford to complete retube the whole thing with fresh ones and get it serviced afterward with the money. It sounded great.

A tube tester is a good thing to have, because you can give potential buyers the test results (not to mention that you can save yourself lots of money on unnecessary tube changes based on a time schedule rather than on actual tube condition).
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That would make sense, because the Magnavox tubes in a 70's Ampeg would be rebranded RCAs, and by the 70s, RCA tubes were junk in comparison to the Golden Era stuff. It's a common mistake that people make, thinking that tubes from the 70s were somehow special because they're 'vintage.' The Golden Era was from the 40s to the mid 60s, and for RCA in particular, it was in steady decline from the early 60s. The British and European factories lasted at their top quality for a few years longer, but the oncoming advent of transistor technology meant that by the 70s, they were all winding up their tube production and really only staying open to fulfil their military contracts. It's totally plausible that you would hear little tonal difference between a tube from RCA in decline in the 70s and the stuff the Russians and Chinese make now. The only real difference would be longevity, because you could expect even the 70s junk from an American factory to last 5-10 times longer than current production stuff.





Cheers.................................... wahwah
 
Re: NOS tubes...

I have this problem with my Metaltronix, as well, and had some success with those tube dampers. It's not a night and day difference but the threshold feels a bit higher before microphonic screaming. The best old tube I've found for my V1 is a Matsu****a.

Tone, though, I don't know. Yeah, at lower gain levels, it's noticeable, but at the high-ish gain level I use, it's not so obvious. I'm probably just going to go with something new and low-noise and deal with it.
 
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Re: NOS tubes...

Wah Wah, is that black plate RCA really that much better than the long grey plate? Mine are all dated 57.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

wahwah said:
Yeah, unfortunately just the shield doesn't indicate the date, because they started adding that again late in the piece, so it comes down to date codes. The rebrands are a good indication too, because that seemed to be happening at the height of production, around the early 60s. That's when Mullard were making their best stuff. If you find a Mullard branded for Eico, and it has plenty of juice left, grab it, because they were making those for Eico in the early 60s.

Did you try the SED's from the St Petersburg factory for 6L6s? They're probably the best made current production tubes.




Cheers......................................... wahwah
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I'll take more care to check the date codes if I decide to go for some NOS mullards in the future. I think I like the KT66 in this amp, I am going to try the JJ ones at some point soon perhaps. May eventually drop some money on some old GEC, but those are $400 a pair at least, and going up...
 
Re: NOS tubes...

wahwah said:
We'll have to agree to disagree that there are current production tubes that will give a 50s RCA black plate a run for its money, in any of the important criteria of tone, longevity or reliability. I would go as far as to say that there will never be anything that good ever made again. But then that tube will not suit every amp. The fact still remains that many modern amps won't benefit from tubes from the Golden Era, because they have been designed around Russian or Chinese tubes. In which case, its a matter of putting up with poor quality control, inferior tone, and planned obsolescence, and choosing one of the brands that have all been spat out of just a few factories. To each their own.




Cheers.......................................... wahwah
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I wasn't really disagreeing with you simply pointing out that some people still won't justify the cost. And as you pointed out there are pieces of equipment that really don't benefit from "better" tubes. As long as you have a functioning tube without issues performance will be about the same, which is probably where a lot of these misinformed people get their opinions that their JJ can hold it's own against
"fill in the blank".

I agree that tubes will probably never be the same again, that's just a bitter reality and eventually all the golden era tubes will be used up and gone, so at some point people are going to have to use other options. I doubt people are going to throw away prized amps and such simply bc the tubes aren't up to snuff anymore, but who knows maybe I'm wrong.

Tubes aren't the only thing people have these types of opinions about I could easily make a lot of the same arguments about different pickups....like a lot of people would rather buy a GFS, Duncan, or Dimarzio then shell out money for Lollars, Fralins, Bareknuckles, Rio Grandes, etc. because to them the differences aren't worth the cost.
 
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Re: NOS tubes...

King IzzO))) said:
Wah Wah, is that black plate RCA really that much better than the long grey plate? Mine are all dated 57.
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57 is earlier than any grey plate RCA I've seen, and the history seems to show the shift to long grey plates happened in 1960. There's a chance they were rebranded from another factory, there was quite a bit of that going on, although less so with RCA. Either way, the early long grey plates are still fine tubes, but the general consensus is that the black plates are smoother, less compressed sounding, and with slightly earlier and sweeter breakup. Hearing is believing though, and in a particular amp and to a particular set of ears, the grey plates may be favoured. Ultimately, only experimentation can tell. I carry around an early 60s long grey plate as an emergency spare, but I know it doesn't sound as good in my Super Champ as the black plates. It will certainly get me through a gig though, without anyone complaining.




Cheers..................................... wahwah
 
Re: NOS tubes...

PRSfan nym 1985 said:
I wasn't really disagreeing with you simply pointing out that some people still won't justify the cost.
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The cost issue is an interesting one. I don't think I've ever paid more than $30 for a good used RCA black plate 12AX7. With regular touring and flying, I have seen the latest pre tube I put in the amp last 5 years, and showing no signs of giving up yet. Weighing that up against the longevity (or lack thereof) of current production tubes, I wonder how much I would have spent in the same time frame on one of the many brands that come out of the Xpo-pul factory, or Shanguang or Slovakia.

But your point is taken, for many people, the differences simply aren't enough to justify going through the process, for whatever reason. For playing at home, or at an amateur level, it is probably of little or no consequence. The same could be said for owning a decent guitar or amp in the first place. For those who get involved in forums like these because they are fascinated with guitar and tone and the possibilities, there's the likelihood that the information of what's available, and what is good, or great, will be of much more interest, even if just for their own entertainment.





Cheers.................................... wahwah
 
Re: NOS tubes...

and unfortunately when you go online not everyone plays in bands or even in front of other people. So their subjective opinion on perfect tone isn't even based on playing in real world scenarios where you have to cut through a mix, etc. Playing in a small bedroom in an apt vs playing on a concert stage (big or small) are two different things.

And as you said a lot of people don't like being bothered with the process of buying vintage tubes when they can just hop on tubestore or eurotubes and be on their way.

I couldn't agree more about people just ponying up and buying the right gear in the first place, or setting up that gear to play well, etc.

the internet can be a great place but it can also be horrible because there are a lot of people that don't have much experience putting out misinformation.

And I agree on the cost front a lot of times spending more on the right gear up front saves you money long term.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

jones said:
I'll take more care to check the date codes if I decide to go for some NOS mullards in the future. I think I like the KT66 in this amp, I am going to try the JJ ones at some point soon perhaps. May eventually drop some money on some old GEC, but those are $400 a pair at least, and going up...
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Yeah, the popular big power tubes is where my fascination with vintage tubes stops, because the prices are prohibitive, and the available stock really is the dregs of what was once available. Vintage EL34s, 6L6s and the like have pretty much seen their best days come and go, and the good stuff has been used up. I think a lot of people think that the preamp tubes side of things must be the same way, but there's still plenty out there. My main amp uses 6V6s, so I've still been lucky enough to stash enough pairs of the good stuff to keep it and its spare twin going for the rest of my career. For power tubes, it's a matter of finding what works best from the current production, but it is generally the case that the first pre tube is going to have a more profound effect on the tone anyway, so it's an area primed for experimentation with the many offerings.





Cheers......................................... wahwah
 
Re: NOS tubes...

I notice much more difference between pre-tubes than power tubes, though I do have a set of STR387's.

Wah, I looked again, my Raytheons are dated 57, RCA's are 63, good call. They all came out of a Lowry organ, haha.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

yeah if i could afford a set of golden age 6ca7 power tubes and a good trio of 12ax7 preamp tubes for my tweaker i'd be all over it, unfortunately I just haven't found the right deal. So for now I'll be going with JJ's from Eurotubes, which really aren't all that bad. Bob stands behind what he sells and he tests his products.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

wahwah said:
I've had a different experience of vintage tubes. Around 2003 I started collecting enough of a stash of what I found to be the best for my amps, namely late 50s black plate RCA 12AX7s and 6V6GTs, and a few early 60s Mullard short plate ECC83s. I didn't bother buying NOS, I just bought 'good used' that still had 90% or more of their life left. Most of my work is interstate, so I've got a Fender Super Champ that is constantly flying, and it has had the same set of RCAs in it for the past 5 years. The amp was recently serviced, and the tech said the tubes were still going strong, and they certainly still sound great.

I have avoided using tube dealers because their prices are ridiculous. And as I said, I have also bought good used as opposed to NOS, thus avoiding the extra premium. eBay still has plenty of listings for the tubes I like, but I've probably got enough stashed away for all of my amps for the rest of my life. I still haven't heard a current production tube that comes close to the Golden Era stuff, so I wouldn't waste my money on them, especially with their reliability problems and ludicrously short life by comparison.

Gimme this stuff, any day...


IMG_3011.jpg


IMG_1318.jpg





Cheers................................. wahwah
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My thoughts exactly...
 
Re: NOS tubes...

So, for those who don't want to buy NOS, who makes what you consider to be the "best built" current-production tubes?

I just tested the tubes in my Jet and in my Princeton, and I have a motley collection of JJs, GTs, Sovteks, RCAs, Magnavoxes, maybe a Phillips or GE or Ruby two. I've never paid it much mind, and never noticed a problem with my amp's tone. My EL84's and the 12AX7's in the Jet read at around 75 percent, so I'd like to get some replacements at the ready, since I'll probably need to change them some time in the next year or two.
 
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Re: NOS tubes...

I think a lot of it depends on the tube you are replacing and the tone you are after.

For a smoother preamp tube the Mullard RI is nice, for a darker pre tube the JJ is nice, for brighter the Tung Sol is nice.

Since you mentioned EL84's my favorite current production EL84 is probably the JJ.

I liked Groove Tubes before Fender took them over and ruined them, Ruby is ok, JJ isn't bad, etc. really every brand I've tried has hit and miss products.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

I have found that NOS tubes are not great in modern higher gain amps. I have them in my DR Z and my old Fender Princeton and they are godly. In my ENGL and Blackstar amps I actually prefer modern chinese preamp tubes.
 
Re: NOS tubes...

Try some RFT in place of those Chinese tubes if you get an itch, but yeah, nothing wrong with Chinese tubes. Marshalls like them a lot.
 
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