Not another treble bleed thread

[Sanzop]

I have a few questions about the loss of treble when the volume is turned down.

This is based on my personal experience. That being said I have used treble bleed mods in the past. I don't like them and currently do not use them so here I'll explain. Also **disclaimer** I know treble loss is naturally occurring even if it is not perceived by the listeners ear.

Situation #1:

I bought a brand new import guitar that came from the factory with SD 59/JB combo. Guitar had SEVERE treble loss when rolling off the volume. I opened her up to find the typical dime sized import pots and boxey switch. I put in CTS pots and switch craft switch. Sounds freaking amazing. No treble bleed mod needed.

Situation #2:

Bought a brand new import guitar with factory DiMarzio pickups. It had very little to no perceivable treble loss. I opened it up to find the typical dime sized pots and a cheap Chinese switch.

*Not saying any particular pickup brand is better just a comparison*

So here's the questions:

1) With similar electronics why would one brand of pickup have a more drastic treble loss?

2) If just switching to higher quality components completely fixed the problem why use a treble bleed circuit? Excluding cost as a reason.

Thanks for any insight on this .

 

[Gtrjunior]

Is it possible that the Dimarzio guitar was wired 50’s style and the Duncan guitar wired modern. Then when you rewired the Duncan guitar you wired it 50’s without knowing?

 

[idsnowdog]

Without seeing both guitar's original wiring it's pointless to engage in conjecture.

 

[Sanzop]

If I remember correctly they came wired with the hot lead AND the tone control attached to Lug 1 of the volume. I wired both with 2 volumes 2 spin-a-splits. Hot lead to the first lug of the volume, second lug of volume to switch, switch to jack. I used the Seymour Duncan wiring diagram. Currently both guitars are wired this way.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[PFDarkside]

So you removed tone controls? That right there is a huge factor.

Unless the old pots were faulty (maybe an unintended partial short to ground) simply swapping equivalent parts of equivalent values shouldn’t alter the behavior as you roll back the volume.

 

[Sanzop]

So you removed tone controls? That right there is a huge factor.

Unless the old pots were faulty (maybe an unintended partial short to ground) simply swapping equivalent parts of equivalent values shouldn’t alter the behavior as you roll back the volume.

I agree that removing the tone pots was probably a huge factor

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[Sanzop]

I have corrected the issue andd faulty parts could definitely be a reason but what I'm really curious about is why this treble loss happens in the first place.

Like the attached pic **I did not wire this, I got it this way**

This is a import LP copy from the 90s DiMarzio neck pickup and unknown bridge pickup. Virtually no treble loss (to my ears).

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[Clint 55]

It could also be the taper of the volume pot. An audio taper volume pot will turn down more quickly and also get darker more quickly. It could also be the total value of the volume pot (as measured).

 

[Teleplayer]

Probably the pots that cause treble loss were at the outside of their tolerance spec. It doesn't make a difference if they are half-inch or full size pots. Its a really good idea to check the resistance of the pots with a meter before installing them. Lower resistance controls give a warmer tone.

 

[beaubrummels]

1) With similar electronics why would one brand of pickup have a more drastic treble loss?

2) If just switching to higher quality components completely fixed the problem why use a treble bleed circuit? Excluding cost as a reason.

Thanks for any insight on this .

It’s not the brand of pickup or quality of components. It’s the value of the pots and the wiring scheme that makes the difference. Are you absolutely certain the pots that exhibited the problem are the same value resistance as the CTS you replaced them with? Are you absolutely certain you did the exact same wiring scheme for the replacement, with no modification other than the brand of pot?

 

[freefrog]

As mentioned above by our fellow members, It might be a side effect of pots resistance & taper.

It might also be a side effect of stray capacitance, as it appears in pots, switches and wiring... but also in the output cables of the pickups and even in their inner structure...

But it's not a question of brands and the specs evoked don't depend either on price: granted, a cheap pot is often less resistive than its official value (with 420k measured for an exhibited resistance of 500k, for instance)... but it might also have the same actual resistance than a CTS - and conversely.
In the same way, the cheapest patch cable might have a lowest capacitance than expensive ones.
It's in consistency, reliability and sturdiness that Price often (albeit not always) makes a difference IME/IMHO. YMMV.

 

[Adieu]

I bought some 70 cent noname pots on amazon ($6.99 / 10) and the couple I tested were ~1% tolerance.... 496k and 507k iirc.

I'm kinda shocked the expensive stuff is marketed at like +/-20% tolerance.

 

[Adieu]

Hmm for curiosity's sake I measured all the unused stuff I had on hand.

Bourns 500k pushpulls:
568
546
585

Noname 500k minis:
453
450
458
456
438
465
468
478
498

 

[ErikH]

Were the stock pots linear or log? That makes a difference too.

 

[Mincer]

Hmm for curiosity's sake I measured all the unused stuff I had on hand.

Bourns 500k pushpulls:
568
546
585

Noname 500k minis:
453
450
458
456
438
465
468
478
498

Wow, that is pretty remarkable.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Yah, the advantage in premium post is not just overall build & materials but consistency.

Cheap Asian pots aren't notorious because they're always bad, but because they're unpredictable.
Terrible ones come along with the good ones, thanks to little or no quality control.
Some are perfectly okay but you never know what you're gonna get.
It's the luck of the draw.

With a quality pot you can be confident it's at or above spec.

 

[Gtrjunior]

CTS makes a mini pot at very reasonable prices.

 

[beaubrummels]

Usually price point on pots has to do with tolerance and/or cycle life. That’s not necessarily a “quality” difference per se, but a spec difference. Certain specs cost more to produce because you have to lose more parts during QA.