Only getting clean tone with Champ

Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

gibson175 said:
what tubes are in there, and how old are they?
sometimes people swap out the 12ax7 from the first tube slot to increase clean headroom.
A fresh set of tubes might be all it needs.
Click to expand...
I am kind of thinking the same thing.
You may just need a fresh AX7 in the first slot.
Your 6V6 may also be just about dead.
You just have to change them to new, and see what you hear.
Your speaker is kind of a bad choice for the amp. but you can deal with THAT later
There really was NO Silverface Champ.....the schematic never changed...just the cosmetics.
You should still be hearing the amp break-up, regardless of what the speaker is doing.
With that said.....the original speakers were horrible, and added a lot to the tone.. If you are listening to the sound of THAT in other amps.....then yes, your bass speaker is part of the "problem".
do you live near me.?
 
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Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

6V6 tubes have early breakup. You shouldn't have difficulties getting some crunch out of them.
Something's not right. Maybe the amp's not biased properly, or it had modifications at some point.
My amp is 15 watts and has 6V6 tubes and I actually struggle the other way around, clean headroom.

You said you're a beginner. I think you should let somebody experienced test it and see what comes up.
It could be something worthy of a tech, or maybe something simple we haven't thought about.
Good luck!
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

My first amplifier was a Silverface Champ. It never would run into overdrive.

Off the top of my head, I cannot recall how much attenuation there was on the inputs of late Seventies variants. CBS may have deviated from Leo's original specifications.

Somebody has already mentioned the Fender Special Design (read: Eminence) loudspeaker. If you have access to another loudspeaker cabinet, it might be worth making up a special cable so that the Champ can drive it. Something with less headroom might provide the grit that you desire.

WARNING - If you try this, use ...
1) ONLY a loudspeaker of suitable impedance rating to match the Fender Champ,
2) ONLY proper loudspeaker cable,
3) the right plugs at either end,
4) switch the amplifier off before changing over the loudspeaker leads
5) switch the amplifier off again before reverting to the standard connections

If you enjoy the existing clean sounds, leave the amp stock and buy an overdrive pedal. With so many boutique pedal makers on the market, you can pick and choose exactly what flavour of dirt you desire.

In similar vein, spring reverb can be simulated with a BOSS FRV-1 pedal. One of the other BOSS/Fender collaborative compact effect pedal designs incorporates Vibrato.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

I recently had a custom Champ head built. Since the chassis I started with was drilled and labeled for Volume, Treble, and Bass controls, I asked the guy to build me a blackface Champ clone. Built to blackface specs and driving a high-power Celestion 12", there is no breakup even with everything on 10.

I added a mini toggle in the back to disconnect the NFB loop (tweed Champs had no NFB, black/silverface amps have it). With the NFB off, it the amp breaks up just fine. I think black/silverface Champs that get dirty do it with the speaker. The amps themselves are clean.

Adding an NFB switch is pretty simple mod. If your amp is vantage, and you don't want to drill a hole, you could do it with a push/pull pot.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

As always, when working on amplifiers, either observe the proper safety precautions or give the work to a qualified technician.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

Rich_S said:
I recently had a custom Champ head built. Since the chassis I started with was drilled and labeled for Volume, Treble, and Bass controls, I asked the guy to build me a blackface Champ clone. Built to blackface specs and driving a high-power Celestion 12", there is no breakup even with everything on 10.

I added a mini toggle in the back to disconnect the NFB loop (tweed Champs had no NFB, black/silverface amps have it). With the NFB off, it the amp breaks up just fine. I think black/silverface Champs that get dirty do it with the speaker. The amps themselves are clean.

Adding an NFB switch is pretty simple mod. If your amp is vantage, and you don't want to drill a hole, you could do it with a push/pull pot.
Click to expand...
You can repurpose the ground switch as one as well if you convert to a three prong cord.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

zzmoore, cool, I will order some tubes just to see if that is what the issue is. I have been reading about speakers, but it actually is a bit overwhelming and I'm OK with letting that wait for a minute. With a lot of these components, I'll read testimonials from people who love a particular one, and then people who think it's terrible. I guess a lot of it is subjective and relative to what sound one is wanting. I'm not really looking for the original tone, just some breakup, a bluesy sound. I don't live near you, I'm in upstate NY. Thanks for asking though.

Diego, right, who knows, it could have been modified. I think you're right, I am definitely going to take it in to a tech. It will have to wait until after the holidays though, with the extra expenses this season brings. The amp was already like an early Christmas present to myself. That's why I like the idea of trying a couple of tubes that I can get for pretty cheap.

It's interesting to hear Diego's and Funkfinger's very different experiences with the same amp. It seems like there can be a lot of variation between individual amps.

Funkfinger, that extra cabinet is such a cool idea. The champ I have was rehoused in an MDF cabinet, I actually have the original cabinet. It's a little beat up, but I think still usable. The thing is, I really do love the existing clean sounds. I'm sure I don't have the discerning ear that an experienced player has, but the amp sounds absolutely wonderful to me. Maybe I'll think differently later on. But I do like the idea of solutions that keep the existing sound. But at least even with getting new tubes or a speaker for the amp, I can always reverse those changes. The cabinet idea sounds fun though.

Rich, interesting about the breakup. Is the NFB disconnect the same as the Tweedifying mod that I've seen mentioned here and there? I wouldn't mind having a switch.

Funkfingers, gotcha, I will be super careful if I do decide to work on it myself.

PFDarkside, is the ground switch inside the amp? How does that go?

Thank you all again for all of the thoughts and info. It seems like there are so many options to choose from in the process of finding the tone I want. I can change tubes, do the extra cabinet , do the NFB switch, or all of the above maybe. I will certainly get the amp checked out by a tech. I think Santa is bringing me a pedal, the Maxon OD808, I'm looking forward to trying it. What about (did I read this right on the forums?), when people add an extra preamp to their amp? I've also seen standalone preamp booster devices, are those both a similar approach? Could one have a switch for an extra preamp? Or is it overkill?
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

Zaxxon said:
Rich, interesting about the breakup. Is the NFB disconnect the same as the Tweedifying mod that I've seen mentioned here and there? I wouldn't mind having a switch.
Click to expand...

There are several differences between the tweed Champ and the black/silverface. NFB is one of them and the easiest to implement. The tone stack also takes away some gain.

Where in "Upstate NY" are you?
 
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Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

It all boils down (or is it up) to personal preference.....but if it wee me, I would keep the NFB (though you could still make that switchable) and install a Push-Pull pot for the tone stack lift.
I never really liked the BF Fender without NFB.....but that gets into the whole 31 flavors thing.:)
Good Luck with whatever you decide my friend.....just make sure you start with good tubes, filter caps, etc etc.
Another thing to consider....those amps ran the piss put of the power tube.....most guys (eventually) install a larger value and larger wattage Cat Resistor.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

I see, Rich. I'm in New Paltz. Please forgive me for using the term "upstate." I was born and raised in NYC. Real upstate NYers scoff at me when I describe NP as being upstate.

Thanks, zzmoore. I think I'd like to do both mods, switchable. I guess that would be the only way to really find out what I like. I'll keep the rest of that info in mind.

Can anyone tell me the minimum set of tools I would need to start working on the amp? Do I need a multimeter? Any recommendations for a decent one that isn't too expensive? I have a cheap soldering iron that doesn't seem to melt the solder. Any recommendations for a soldering iron that would meet the requirements needed for what I'd be doing? What are the basic tools that I need to drain the capacitors?
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

Funkfingers said:
My first amplifier was a Silverface Champ. It never would run into overdrive.

Off the top of my head, I cannot recall how much attenuation there was on the inputs of late Seventies variants. CBS may have deviated from Leo's original specifications.

Somebody has already mentioned the Fender Special Design (read: Eminence) loudspeaker. If you have access to another loudspeaker cabinet, it might be worth making up a special cable so that the Champ can drive it. Something with less headroom might provide the grit that you desire.

WARNING - If you try this, use ...
1) ONLY a loudspeaker of suitable impedance rating to match the Fender Champ,
2) ONLY proper loudspeaker cable,
3) the right plugs at either end,
4) switch the amplifier off before changing over the loudspeaker leads
5) switch the amplifier off again before reverting to the standard connections

If you enjoy the existing clean sounds, leave the amp stock and buy an overdrive pedal. With so many boutique pedal makers on the market, you can pick and choose exactly what flavour of dirt you desire.

In similar vein, spring reverb can be simulated with a BOSS FRV-1 pedal. One of the other BOSS/Fender collaborative compact effect pedal designs incorporates Vibrato.
Click to expand...


If I were to set up the empty Champ cabinet that I have with a speaker, what would I need? The cable, wires, a speaker, a jack?
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

THAT is a good question....wish I could help you out.
My iron was 180 bux.
I would be tempted to spend 30 more dollars and get the Weller that is similar
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/weller-wlc100-economy-soldering-station .....but I could be wrong.
Try going to Amazon and see if you can read the reviews about that Stahl. Amazon is a great place to go for opinions on "stuff" that you are considering to purchase.
Are you a "younger person" by chance.?
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

This thread is so painful to read, because I've been there, wanting to solve the problem, yet it goes on for days... I feel for you, dude.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

Zaxxon said:
I see, Rich. I'm in New Paltz. Please forgive me for using the term "upstate." I was born and raised in NYC. Real upstate NYers scoff at me when I describe NP as being upstate.

Thanks, zzmoore. I think I'd like to do both mods, switchable. I guess that would be the only way to really find out what I like. I'll keep the rest of that info in mind.

Can anyone tell me the minimum set of tools I would need to start working on the amp? Do I need a multimeter? Any recommendations for a decent one that isn't too expensive? I have a cheap soldering iron that doesn't seem to melt the solder. Any recommendations for a soldering iron that would meet the requirements needed for what I'd be doing? What are the basic tools that I need to drain the capacitors?
Click to expand...

The fact that you are asking these questions tells me that you have absolutely no business messing around in that amp. You could get killed.

Bill
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

I've been doing a lot of reading about smaller Fender amps recently and I remembered this thread. I bet there is a bad capacitor (or two). Apparently the cathode bypass resistor can run hot on these amps and if the cathode bypass cap is pressed against it, it can fail.

Definitely take it to a good amp tech and have them do a once over. If you are new to Tube Amplification you don't want to be poking around the caps if you don't know what you are doing.
 
Re: Only getting clean tone with Champ

Rereading this thread, I'm appreciating all of the information about Champs and mods for them. Thanks to all who posted.

Bill, I hear you about the danger. I stayed away from messing around in the amp.

I know this thread is a bit old but I thought I'd update it, with my little story in chronological order.

I ended up taking the amp to a tech not long after my last post. I can't find the receipt at the moment but he replaced a thing or two that were old, possibly caps? He replaced all the tubes, fixed the light, and did what he called a blackface mod, I don't remember exactly what that entailed. No more buzzing, the amp sounded great, but, still super clean.

I did get a tubescreamer, which I've used here and there, but to my taste, is a bit more on the "smooth" side than I want.

I loved the cabinet idea Funkfingers suggested, and since I have the original cabinet for the amp, I thought I'd get ahold of an original speaker to see if the speaker made a difference. I got an old Oxford 8ev that needed the voice coil fixed. The funny thing that happened during all of this is that I came to like the Champ so much that I stopped caring about the dirty tone, and the speaker's been sitting on a desk since then and still hasn't been sent out.

I eventually also got a Blackstar HT-1 for traveling, and I can get lots of bluesy or rock tones with it, so that took the need to change the Champ away even more. And the Champ, to me, just sounds stellar, it does what it does, beautifully.

Then a couple of months ago, I realized that I CAN get some crunch from the Champ! Dimed, hitting chords, it has a nice classic rock sound. Not that aggressive, but there. It impressed upon me how, especially if one is inexperienced, it can take living with an instrument or piece of equipment for a while, to get to know it.

The amp still is extremely clean sounding for the most part, and won't give any blues breakup for lead, but it doesn't matter to me now and I wouldn't change anything about the amp. I also ended up getting a H&K Bluesmaster a couple weeks ago, and with that plugged in to it as a preamp, gets the tone out of the Champ that I was looking for.

I still have lots of plans for making cabinets for these amps, etc.. I'm still curious to see if the Champ driving the original speaker breaks up early. But, especially having alternatives that give me dirtier tones, I'm now glad the amp is the way it is.
 
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