Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

[75lespaul]

Hi everyone--

Got a couple of AKG mics to record acoustic and electric guitar with. They need phantom power. My question is this--Would a basic phantom power box do the trick or is it worth it, or even advised to get a tube mic preamp like a Studio Projects VBM-1 or PreSonus TUBEPre microphone preamp. It seems for vocals, that's the way to go but is it cool to use a tube preamp to mic a guitar cab? :smack: Cranked up fairly loudly for rock & metal I might add.

Thanks everyone! :smoker:

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

I've never used a phantom power box because all the sources that I have for phantom power also have mic preamps as part of the package. But I can say this. Mics with no (or very marginal) preamps sound poor and the better the preamp the better the tone will be.

Increasing your source volumes will not make up for a lacking mic pre.

It really depends on what you are recording into. Almost anything that will accept an xlr cable will have some sort of mic pre. If you are running a mixer, stand alone recorder or computer interface you will have a mic pre. I would have to assume that any sound card with a mic input has some sort of mic pre. It's the quality that is the issue. The Focusrite pres in my Digi 002 rack or my Aphex 207 tube mic pre sound much fuller and warmer than the pres in my Mackie board or in the Fostex VF-16 I used to record into.

Good mic pres are definately worth it if you are looking for killer recorded tone.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

I'm using a Tascam US-428 computer interface and it doesn't have phantom power as far as I can tell. The digi unit is well out of my price range but the Aphex looks good. I only need one power source though. The two units I mentioned above have recieved good reviews so I'll take your advice as meaning that a mic preamp has more musical use than just a phantom power source. :smoker: :stooges: :yourock: :beerchug:

 

[techonly]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

What's phantom power and what's it used for?

 

[Blue Calx]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

Yeah... I guess phantom power boxes do exist, but to have one without a mic pre attached is kinda like... well, a burger without fries. Or fries without a burger, rather.

What's phantom power and what's it used for?

The following is straight outta the bible... er... Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook:

COndenser micorphones require a polarizing voltage and power for their built-in amplifiers. Sometimes provision is made to supply this voltage directly through the microphone cable. The procedure is called phantom powering, and the most common phantom supply voltage avalilable in mixing consoles is 48 VDC, although 24V supplies are widely used. Most phantom poweredmics can operate on a wide range of supply voltages from as little as 1.5 or 9 volts up to 50 volts.

In a phantom power system, the polarizing supply voltage is placed on both of the signal lines in a balanced connction, with the same polarity on each line. Dynamic microphones connected in a balanced system with a phantom power input are then protected from damage, theoretically, since the system results in a net zero DC potential across the coil. A dynmaic mic conected unbalanced to a phantom power input may be destroyed, however!

Basically, it's a DC offset of the signal coming up both the positive and negative lines of a balanced mic cable, and it's used to power microphones which need it, and it is ignored by microphones which don't need it.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

I mentioned the Digi 002 as a reference point for good mic preamps, not as a retail suggestion for you, although it appears that the Tascam US-248 appears to be compatable as a controller simular to the Digi Command|8, which is one of the next things on my list to get.

I have never used the Studio Projects or PreSonus preamps but the buzz I have heard about the PreSonus stuff has been good. My experience with the Aphex 207 has been very good though. The 207 is a dual channel tube preamp with phanton power selectable on both channels as well as polarity, a pad, low cut and some very good limiting all accessable from the front panel. It has mic inputs in the rear as well as line inputs on the front panel which is very nice for plugging in and recording electric guitars, acoustic guitars that have built in preamps and electric basses. the cool thing about using the 207 or simular units for preamping instruments is it eliminates the need for direct boxes and the tone is far superior to direct boxes or line level signals. I like the dual channel because you can run a mic through one channel and an acoustic through the other and get killer tone for demoing out basic song bodies. The 207 makes mics and direct guitars sound huge with a very low noise floor.

The Tascam looks like a nice interface but in that price range the preamps are not going to be exceptional and a good tube mic pre is going to make a huge difference in your tone. What i do is that I insert a DBX 166 XL compressor (2 channel) into the Aphex 207 and compress the mics and line instruments quite a bit at the 207 and the output and tone are huge. With voice, bass and acoustic guitars and their large dynamic range you have to compress the signal quite a bit and it's not uncommon for me to run 8:1 compression or higher to level the signal.

At the moment I'm using an AKG C 3000B mic for vocals and the results are very "in your face". Before I got a good mic preamp my vocals sounded very distant and rather thin and it took a lot of EQ work to make them sound marginal at best.

I('m not going to tell you which mic pre to get but I highly suggest a nice dual tube preamp of some kind. It makes a huge difference in tone.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

And you are correct. I downloaded the Tascam US-428 pdf and it does not have phantom power.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

Some mics like the Shure SM57 or SM58 can just be plugged in and they work. These are dynamic mics i believe. Other mics need a power source to work. This is called Phantom Power. Like Robert said a lot of mixers, recorders etc... have phantom power already but some do not like mine.

:smash: :wizard: :stooges: :feedback: :soapbox:

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

The 57s and 58s do not need phantom power but their tone is greatly improved by a good preamp.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

Robert--

Great stuff! I got the C 3000 b along with the C 1000 S in the project pack. I already have the Studioprojects tube preamp but I haven't had a chance yet to take some time and learn it. I didn't know you could use these to liven up direct outs though. I have a Line 6 Vetta and that sure couldn't hurt but I still like to mic a cab better when i can do it without taking down the house. At the moment my budget will only let me get the single tube, single mic preamp so since I've got the Studioprojects already, I'd like to have the PreSonus also to compare them.

You've given me something to budget for now though--thanks!

:saeek: :newangel: :wall: :friday:

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

:headbang: :stooges: :feedback: Would using the compressor in my recording software have the same effect as the 166 pre Aphex or does the chain have to be run compressor/mic preamp.

:burnout: :cool3:

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

At this point I would use the onboard compressors as much as possible to keep your costs down. A good tube pre will make such an improvement in tone that you'll be more than happy for quite awhile.

I am inside of a serious learning curve at the moment and virtual vs. hardware is something I'm still fighting back and forth with while balancing my budget with my needs.

My situation went something like this. I had a Fostex VF-16 which is a nice deck and once I got good with it and the effects it had I got some very nice tone from it. The preamps are deceint and the compression and effects were pretty good.

I got the Aphex 207 and my tone got better. I started using the 166 XL with the 207 and my tone got better yet.

The I did something silly and bought the ProTools stuff and my tone got better once again, even running through a PC. Bought a dual 2 gig G5 and my tone went through the roof.

A couple of days ago I picked up the Waves 4.0 bundle and now I'm in little piggy heaven. The verbs, mods, EQs and compressors (and everything else in that bundle) sounds incredible. The down side is that I am in way over my head and Im utilizing maybe 2% (seriously) of what my current system has available.

Not knowing what software you are running and what if any upwards direction you have in mind for your recording rig buying stand alone compression or any other pieces may be overkill. I used the 166 XL because I had it here at the house but with my current software it may be obsolete.

If your software is deceint and/or if you are still in the learning curve I'd keep it simple for awhile. After reading the tascam pfd though it's my opinion that you do need a solid mic preamp.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

The StudioProjects VT-1 V series preamp has 48v phantom power. You should be good to go. The info at MF says it can be used as a line amp (instruments) and will replace a direct box. I'd suggest running clean guitars and bass through it and you might try running Line6 to VT-1 to deck balanced in. You may find running the Line6 through a tube before tape warms up your tone.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Opinions--phantom power or tube preamp

I run Sonar 2 with the US-428. I had Windows ME and it kept locking up but since I've upgraded to Windows XP there have been no problems at all. I don't notice much of a difference between the computer and a regular tape recorder.