Opposite of a treble bleed, but while at full volume??

[Despised]

Hey guys.

So after playing with a guitar with a set of DiMarzio D-Activator 7's in it, I am finding that full volume it tends to sound like a wah is cocked in the full down position, very tin-y. I am able to tame it with the tone pot by rolling it down almost half way, but I was wondering if there was a capacitor or something I could wire on the volume pot that would do the same thing...

I also plan on changing the standard volume pot for a concentric pot (an Alpha B500k/B500K...) so each pickup can have its own volume pot...

Is there something I can wire in on the bridge pickup volume that would take some of the high-end bite out of the signal at full volume, without having to use the tone pot for it and affecting the tone of the neck pickup when I switch to the middle or neck positions?? Kinda curious and would love to do and have it if there is... Won't mind using the tone pot if not, but figured I'd ask and see what options there are for something like this...

Thanks!!

 

[Lewguitar]

Maybe just replace your 500K volume and tone pots with 250K pots?

That's why Strats have 250K pots: they're too dam trebley with 500K pots!

 

[beaubrummels]

My first thought would be a lower value pot with a treble bleed. So at full volume it's slightly darker than before and the treble bleed kicks in back to normal as you turn down.

Edit: like Lew said

 

[Despised]

My first thought would be a lower value pot with a treble bleed. So at full volume it's slightly darker than before and the treble bleed kicks in back to normal as you turn down.

Edit: like Lew said

Hmmm, interesting... I have the treble bleed cap, and I have a 250K I can try it with to see... Thanks guys! Will give that a shot and see what happens!!

EDIT: What could I use to reduce the rating on one of the pots on the concentric pot I'm using, to drop it from 500K to 250k??

 

[freefrog]

Hey guys.

So after playing with a guitar with a set of DiMarzio D-Activator 7's in it, I am finding that full volume it tends to sound like a wah is cocked in the full down position, very tin-y. I am able to tame it with the tone pot by rolling it down almost half way, but I was wondering if there was a capacitor or something I could wire on the volume pot that would do the same thing...

I also plan on changing the standard volume pot for a concentric pot (an Alpha B500k/B500K...) so each pickup can have its own volume pot...

Is there something I can wire in on the bridge pickup volume that would take some of the high-end bite out of the signal at full volume, without having to use the tone pot for it and affecting the tone of the neck pickup when I switch to the middle or neck positions?? Kinda curious and would love to do and have it if there is... Won't mind using the tone pot if not, but figured I'd ask and see what options there are for something like this...

Thanks!!

Late to the party, but...

There's typically two ways to tame the high range: the most applied is to flatten the resonant peak of a pickup thx to a lower resistive load. That's what you do when you set your tone pot half way. That's also what you'd obtain with lower resistance pots.

A second trick, way less popular but effective for slightly different results, is to increase stray capacitance. The simplest way to do that is to plug passive pickups through a long or coily cable. A second mean is to put a low value cap from hot to ground, emulating the stray capacitance of a longer cable. A 1nF capacitor gives the same darkening capacitive load than an average cable measuring 20ft (= value where the capacitive influence of a cable starts to be really noticeable in many cases). A 2,2nF cap emulates 15m of cable. And so on...

Listen the following vid and consider that 1m of cable typically measures 120pF to 150pF (jack plugs included). So, when the guy in the vid plays through 75ft of cable, it's as if he had a 3nF to 3.75nF cap permanently enabled from hot to ground (+ the cable from guitar to cable selector).

He plays with humbuckers in the second part of his demo. The section from 8:40 to 9:00 should illustrate what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2sjeVQpS94


A cap on the volume pot of a bridge PU would affect it + the mid position but wouldn't change the neck PU. And the darkening action of the cap at full volume can be lessened @ lower volume with a treble bleed of the required capacitance/resistance. I've mounted countless iterations of this circuit the last decades...

NOTE - I've cable emulator caps in some of my own guitars, and I put them too in pedals like Fuzz Face's or Big Muff's, in order to soften their output. Capacitors are less cumbersome than coily cables and... way, way cheaper.

FWIW and just to share...

 

[Despised]

Late to the party, but...

There's typically two ways to tame the high range: the most applied is to flatten the resonant peak of a pickup thx to a lower resistive load. That's what you do when you set your tone pot half way. That's also what you'd obtain with lower resistance pots...

Awesome, thank you for the detailed reply!! I would lost likely gonthe route of dropping the value of the pot for the bridge pickup, rather than trying a longer cable or trying different caps to yield the same result.

But now what I am curious of, is is there a resistor or something I could use to drop the value of a pot from 500k down to 250k??? I plan on using a concentric pot for independent volume controls for each pickup and not drilling additional holes in the pickguard... So I would also consider trying this as an option as well.

(Thougn I am going to have WD Music cut a new pickguard for the guitar, its in the early enough stages to figure out which control pattern I really wanna do on it. If I can get away with using the concentric pot as independent volumes and drop the tone & keep the switch, then thats what I will do. And if I can do that and drop the value of the bridge volume pot of the concentric while keeping the neck volume pot a 500k, then that will be ideal!)

 

[Lewguitar]

Try this: Change just the tone control to a 250K pot. Maybe that'll shave just enough of the treble off without having to change the volume pot.

THAT kinda seems like the best thing to try first. Then you can keep your stacked dual 500K volume pot and just have a master 250K tone pot.

You can connect it to your output jack or the terminal on the selector switch going to your output jack.

 

[freefrog]

Awesome, thank you for the detailed reply!! I would lost likely gonthe route of dropping the value of the pot for the bridge pickup, rather than trying a longer cable or trying different caps to yield the same result.

But now what I am curious of, is is there a resistor or something I could use to drop the value of a pot from 500k down to 250k??? I plan on using a concentric pot for independent volume controls for each pickup and not drilling additional holes in the pickguard... So I would also consider trying this as an option as well.

(Thougn I am going to have WD Music cut a new pickguard for the guitar, its in the early enough stages to figure out which control pattern I really wanna do on it. If I can get away with using the concentric pot as independent volumes and drop the tone & keep the switch, then thats what I will do. And if I can do that and drop the value of the bridge volume pot of the concentric while keeping the neck volume pot a 500k, then that will be ideal!)

You're welcome.

Just keep in mind that added capacitance doesn't yield exactly the same result than lowered resistance: added capacitance changes the frequency where the pickup "focuses" its power (and darkens any content above this frequency). A lowered resistance squashes the prominent frequency, making the whole high range flatter and therefore less present.

To do what Lew and Beau' recommended, you can change your pot(s) or... put a resistor in parallel with an existing 500k control. Bill Lawrence did that all the time and Fralin explains it on his website ( https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/10/17/using-resistors-in-guitars-101/ ).


A 500k pot in parallel with a 470k resistor = a load of 242.27k... It changes the taper of the pot and might require an "adapted" treble bleed but it works (reason why I've such parallel resistors in one or several of my own guitars).

 

[Lewguitar]

I don't own one so I can't verify this, but I've read that Eddie Van Halen used a 500K volume and 250K tone in his favorite EVH Wolfgang.

I do own the pickups though and that's how I use them in my PRS.

 

[Artie]

I might be over simplifying this, but doesn't connecting the tone control to the "wiper" of the volume pot accomplish this? (The "other" 50's mod.) That way, the tone control is slowly removed from the circuit as you roll back the volume. I think.

 

[Lewguitar]

I might be over simplifying this, but doesn't connecting the tone control to the "wiper" of the volume pot accomplish this? (The "other" 50's mod.) That way, the tone control is slowly removed from the circuit as you roll back the volume. I think.

That's how I've always done the "50's mod". EZ PZ.

But I've been working on getting used to having a warmer tone over the last couple of years so I don't do any kind of 50's mods or mods to make my guitar brighter anymore.

I set my amp (Vox AC30 or Blackstar Artisan 30) for a great clean tone and then use a pedal board with a Klon, Dover Drive, Strymon Delay and Hall of Fame Reverb. I just added a Wampler Ego compressor.

I finally decided that those who thought I played too loud and played with too bright of a tone were right.

 

[Despised]

You're welcome.

Just keep in mind that added capacitance doesn't yield exactly the same result than lowered resistance: added capacitance changes the frequency where the pickup "focuses" its power (and darkens any content above this frequency). A lowered resistance squashes the prominent frequency, making the whole high range flatter and therefore less present.

To do what Lew and Beau' recommended, you can change your pot(s) or... put a resistor in parallel with an existing 500k control. Bill Lawrence did that all the time and Fralin explains it on his website ( https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/10/17/using-resistors-in-guitars-101/ ).


A 500k pot in parallel with a 470k resistor = a load of 242.27k... It changes the taper of the pot and might require an "adapted" treble bleed but it works (reason why I've such parallel resistors in one or several of my own guitars).

I'm aware of the difference... this is why I'm kinda more curious of trying the added capacitance method first... To me, this seems it would be most similar to the current standing of turning the current 500k tone pot down about half way. This also seems to be what I'm looking for by nit totally squashing the high range of the pickup, its frequency response and the frequencies of the low B string, making it muddy...

The ONLY thing that sucks about this particular guitar is that everything is on the pickguard, and not mounted to the body... it just involves putting on and taking off the strings, pickguard and controls more than I would care to... had it been body mounted like a normal ESP M-II, that would be a different story...

But again, thank you!

 

[Despised]

I might be over simplifying this, but doesn't connecting the tone control to the "wiper" of the volume pot accomplish this? (The "other" 50's mod.) That way, the tone control is slowly removed from the circuit as you roll back the volume. I think.

Hmmmm, that's something else I hadn't thought of: Running a bridge pickup tone control instead of a master tone control... And this would also be an ideal alternative!

I normally never use a tone control, and let the pickups go full bore to a volume pot. But lately I have been finding that on certain guitars, I have been keeping the tone pot in it because it comes in handy. I'm thinking this is another one of those situations...

Now I just need to know or figure out how to wire the tone pot as a bridge pickup tone instead of a master tone for the application I'm m looking to do with it ( 2 HB, multi-pole 5-way switch w/outer coils split in pos. 4 & inner coil splits in pos. 2, 2 independent pickup volumes...)...

 

[Lewguitar]

Hmmmm, that's something else I hadn't thought of: Running a bridge pickup tone control instead of a master tone control... And this would also be an ideal alternative!

I normally never use a tone control, and let the pickups go full bore to a volume pot. But lately I have been finding that on certain guitars, I have been keeping the tone pot in it because it comes in handy. I'm thinking this is another one of those situations...

Now I just need to know or figure out how to wire the tone pot as a bridge pickup tone instead of a master tone for the application I'm m looking to do with it ( 2 HB, multi-pole 5-way switch w/outer coils split in pos. 4 & inner coil splits in pos. 2, 2 independent pickup volumes...)...

That's how I have my favorite PRS Custom 22 set up. one volume and one tone, but the tone is connected directly to the bridge pickup. I rarely want to reduce the treble of my neck pickups. When the two pickups are combined the tone control does reduce treble on both. But when the neck pickup is used by itself the tone control isn't connected.

 

[Despised]

That's how I have my favorite PRS Custom 22 set up. one volume and one tone, but the tone is connected directly to the bridge pickup. I rarely want to reduce the treble of my neck pickups. When the two pickups are combined the tone control does reduce treble on both. But when the neck pickup is used by itself the tone control isn't connected.

Aaahhhh, sweet! I think that's what I'll go for instead of trying to change the pot value, the pot itself, ect... My only other question then is this: is the attached diagram correct as for how to wire the tone pot to the bridge volume??

 

[Lewguitar]

Aaahhhh, sweet! I think that's what I'll go for instead of trying to change the pot value, the pot itself, ect... My only other question then is this: is the attached diagram correct as for how to wire the tone pot to the bridge volume??

My PRS uses a three way toggle switch like a Les Paul. So I have the tone control connected to the same terminal on the switch that the bridge pickup is connected to. Pretty simple.

That's nice because I can turn the tone control down to a sweet spot that sounds good with the bridge pickup and leave it there, without it affecting how my neck pickup sounds when I use the neck pickup by itself.

Of course when you combine both pickups the tone control will affect both pickups together.

But when you use the neck pickup all by itself the tone control will have no affect on it.

 

[Despised]

My PRS uses a three way toggle switch like a Les Paul. So I have the tone control connected to the same terminal on the switch that the bridge pickup is connected to. Pretty simple.

That's nice because I can turn the tone control down to a sweet spot that sounds good with the bridge pickup and leave it there, without it affecting how my neck pickup sounds when I use the neck pickup by itself.

Of course when you combine both pickups the tone control will affect both pickups together.

But when you use the neck pickup all by itself the tone control will have no affect on it.

Which is essentially how it is in the diagram: going from the same pin on the switch that the volume is connected to (the wiper pot...), and the tone connects to the same spots & sigbal path... that would be right, wouldn't it??

I am using the stacked volume because I like to dial in rhe sweet spot in the middle position by dialing in the volumes of each pickup together... But after you & ArtieToo explained it this way, thats what I did in the diagram. I now just need a confirmation that the connections for the tone pot are correct to achieve this.

And thanks Lew as well, huge help in helping me figure this out!!

 

[Lewguitar]

Which is essentially how it is in the diagram: going from the same pin on the switch that the volume is connected to (the wiper pot...), and the tone connects to the same spots & sigbal path... that would be right, wouldn't it??

I am using the stacked volume because I like to dial in rhe sweet spot in the middle position by dialing in the volumes of each pickup together... But after you & ArtieToo explained it this way, thats what I did in the diagram. I now just need a confirmation that the connections for the tone pot are correct to achieve this.

And thanks Lew as well, huge help in helping me figure this out!!

You're welcome. Yes you can cnnect the tone pot to the terminal on the switch that the bridge pickup is connected to, or the terminal of the bridge volume pot that the bridge pickup is connected to.

Either will do.

 

[Despised]

You're welcome. Yes you can cnnect the tone pot to the terminal on the switch that the bridge pickup is connected to, or the terminal of the bridge volume pot that the bridge pickup is connected to.

Either will do.

YES!!! Thanks man!! Now its just a matter of getting the pickguard cut now, ordering the new switch and getting it all together!! Stay safe everyone, and have a happy remainder of the holiday season!

 

[Lewguitar]

So here is the diagram I will be using... can anyone confirm the tone pot connections are per Lewguitar & ArtieToo 's method in the last few posts???

Thanks everyone for the input, ideas and suggestions for this!!!

Here's the deal. You can connect the tone control before the volume pot and that is standard. That would mean connecting the tone control to input of volume pot, which is the same terminal on the volume pot the pickup lead is soldered to.

OR: you could connect the tone control AFTER the volume pot and that would be the "50's MOD" Artie referrd to. To accomplish that you simply connect the tone control to the output of the bridge volume pot: the middle terminal that is connected to the switch.