Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

[jimijames]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

So to be sure, some things you just can't reproduce... Old transistors in fuzz faces for example were all over the map. If you can find a good original with that sound, you might not be able to reproduce that no matter how good your clone is. There's a reason the nkt275 is revered like it is. Similarly good PNP germanium transistors get snactched up as soon as they gain popularity.

But, with op-amp based OD pedals, you're really looking at diodes more than anything. Even the mythical Klon is more about the cannot-find OA126 than the charge pump/od-in-parallel-with-clean-boost setup. You can find the "mythical" TS808 RC4558 op-amp for like 50 cents a unit... And pretty much any diode will work. Hell, even the once-mythical landgraff OD uses 3mm red LEDs for clipping that you can find at any radio shack for absurdly low prices. The carbon comp resistors the thing uses cost more.

Echoplex? The TIS58 is where the conversation begins and ends, even though the humble MPF102 will get you close. And most delays nowadays are all SMD, which is supposed to be anathema to vintage purists... But I'm keeping my malekko 616. Point is that we've learned a lot about why an effect sounds good while the world goes bonkers about the original. I mean, you can recreate the hushed-whisper original Marshall Bluesbreaker or the equally revered analogman KoT for like $60 all said and done... You just won't have the MA856 diodes for the soft/OD clipping (1S1588 for hard clipping is still easy-ish to find) nor the resale value you get with the originals.

So, if you play music live, with a band, in front of people, for less than aerosmith money, it's really hard to talk yourself into these $2k pedals. Plus, with a bass and vocals and drums going at the same time you probably won't hear the harmonic complexity or amp-like response of the OA126 vs. generic small bear electronics germanium diodes that you'd use otherwise.

If you don't want to solder and don't know whether or not you love the effect, I would get the one which holds its resale value. But (1) I would not go for a used DIY effect without gut shots, and (2) unless it's a reputable builder I wouldn't count on it having any resale value. My 2 modded boss sd-1's which have (1) never failed, (2) sound pretty fantastic, and (3) have the 2nd best buffered bypass I've ever heard (1st belonging to the preamp section of the madbean fatpants), and (4) have those rare diodes I spoke of earlier (specifically the ma856 in one and a 5mm LED/OC44 transistor asymmetrical clipping setup in the other) haven't sold even at $35, which is the going price for a used SD-1 without mods.

I know that's a lot of words but basically they mean "buy things which have a resale value unless you're in it to learn how to solder."

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

I was'nt really talking about the digital vs. tube thing. Frankly tube/SS/modelling or whatever ..I'd use any of it if it sounded/felt good to me..as you said it's a personal thing.

My point was the modelling stuff aims to exactly replicate a lot of current production boutique pedals amps etc (& not nesessarily add more/better features) How it does that really is'nt the point. I mean it could be by sticking a mic in front of "X" or "Y" amp & recording it's "digital fingerprint" or "profiling" it some other way (it's copying anyway) ..in the end the dude who might originally have bought a Mesa or Bogner (or whatever pedal) ..might buy a Kemper/AxeFx instead (causing a financial Loss to the originator's of the sound/amp/pedal). That's the "moral issue" I was talking about....

Often Behringer/Chinese pedals are also pretty different from the real thing..they do mod the circuit design...& pretty extensively at times. Some are actual, original designs too...

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

^^^ replying to Empty Pockets.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

I was'nt really talking about the digital vs. tube thing. Frankly tube/SS/modelling or whatever ..I'd use any of it if it sounded/felt good to me..as you said it's a personal thing.

My point was the modelling stuff aims to exactly replicate a lot of current production boutique pedals amps etc (& not nesessarily add more/better features) How it does that really is'nt the point. I mean it could be by sticking a mic in front of "X" or "Y" amp & recording it's "digital fingerprint" or "profiling" it some other way (it's copying anyway) ..in the end the dude who might originally have bought a Mesa or Bogner (or whatever pedal) ..might buy a Kemper/AxeFx instead (causing a financial Loss to the originator's of the sound/amp/pedal). That's the "moral issue" I was talking about....

Often Behringer/Chinese pedals are also pretty different from the real thing..they do mod the circuit design...& pretty extensively at times. Some are actual, original designs too...

and i totally get that, and that's not a moral dilemma to me.

a dude who wants a computer that pretends it's an amp will buy that. a dude who wants a real amp will buy that. they are competing markets but there's no theft of intellectual property. It's a company with a product that CLAIMS TO (but doesn't actually) sound the same as another company's completely different product.

Like when Burger King sells something like a Steakhouse Burger. It doesn't taste like steak.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

That's because it's not steak.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

Others have eluded to it, there are two kinds of clones. First, the kind where one pedal is popular, like an OCD or a Box of Rocks, and someone says "I can make that cheaper/smaller with tiny little surface mount parts, or I can make it bigger/better with expensive parts and the pointier-to-pointiest hand wiring. Sometimes they want you to know its a clone, setting up the parasite/host relationship. Sometimes they just pitch a clone as their own design. All of the above, I'm not a fan of. I understand if you can't afford the real thing but as an artist you reeeeally want to make "that sound" or closest to it. So I don't blame the consumer for buying cheaper/smaller, I'm just not a fan of their existence. In a perfect world I prefer licensing to stealing, consulting to cloning.

The second type is rooted in "you can't get them's no more". I'm helping 65 Amps with exactly that right now. He scored thousands of NOS germanium transistors (PNP) that are fantastic sounding, and extremely consistent. We're doing vintage circuits like the Range Master, Fuzz Face, and Tone Bender MKII. All three would be expensive and very high risk on the used market. Many of them sound bad, few sound great. So these are not only made like a 65 amp, hand wired with full sized amp parts, they each have some additional feature you can toggle. There's always a stock vintage setting somewhere. But the key here is we're not saying "look at his new fuzz circuit we've developed". He's very blatant about the stock setting being a copy of thevibtage circuit, much like Seymour would make a PAF replica. Seymour doesn't wrap up an Antiquity and pitch it as a "new humbucker he designed".

This second type I have no problem with. Even if Sola Sound re-released an exact vintage reissue of their MKII it wouldn't be the same. I've added a gain manipulation circuit that is extremely responsive and interactive with the guitar. Already its "not a clone" in that regard.

 

[Nacho8807]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

I think a lot of you guys are spot on. For myself, if an original and a clone are available I would only buy the clone if:

1. The original is out of production and the used market is sparse/price inflated
2. There are tweaks to the design that make it more usable for me

Technically, aren't reissues clones? Take the Fuzz Face, Dallas Arbiter doesn't make it anymore, Dunlop bought the rights and builds it now. Is that a clone? Is my Ibanez TS808 reissue a clone? Maxon didn't build it. Maybe I'm off base there but I think it's worth asking.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

I'm eluding this discussion.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

Hey man if autocorrect doesn't catch it, it must be right! No "ellusions" about that. If we're all lewd, we all elude the shame of the lewdness we are alluding to.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

Others have eluded to it, there are two kinds of clones. First, the kind where one pedal is popular, like an OCD or a Box of Rocks, and someone says "I can make that cheaper/smaller with tiny little surface mount parts, or I can make it bigger/better with expensive parts and the pointier-to-pointiest hand wiring. Sometimes they want you to know its a clone, setting up the parasite/host relationship. Sometimes they just pitch a clone as their own design. All of the above, I'm not a fan of. I understand if you can't afford the real thing but as an artist you reeeeally want to make "that sound" or closest to it. So I don't blame the consumer for buying cheaper/smaller, I'm just not a fan of their existence. In a perfect world I prefer licensing to stealing, consulting to cloning.

The second type is rooted in "you can't get them's no more". I'm helping 65 Amps with exactly that right now. He scored thousands of NOS germanium transistors (PNP) that are fantastic sounding, and extremely consistent. We're doing vintage circuits like the Range Master, Fuzz Face, and Tone Bender MKII. All three would be expensive and very high risk on the used market. Many of them sound bad, few sound great. So these are not only made like a 65 amp, hand wired with full sized amp parts, they each have some additional feature you can toggle. There's always a stock vintage setting somewhere. But the key here is we're not saying "look at his new fuzz circuit we've developed". He's very blatant about the stock setting being a copy of thevibtage circuit, much like Seymour would make a PAF replica. Seymour doesn't wrap up an Antiquity and pitch it as a "new humbucker he designed".

This second type I have no problem with. Even if Sola Sound re-released an exact vintage reissue of their MKII it wouldn't be the same. I've added a gain manipulation circuit that is extremely responsive and interactive with the guitar. Already its "not a clone" in that regard.

Brilliant as usual Frank.

Yeah, my Young Pedals DM-600 is based off the DM-2 circuit but adds another BBD chip for 600ms time and has foot switchable modulation... I guess that's the 2nd type you mentioned.

I've always rather had the original pedal even though I am thinking about pulling the trigger on a Rawkworks light overdrive that's a Klon-ish pedal.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

Others have alluded to it, there are two kinds of clones. First, the kind where one pedal is popular, like an OCD or a Box of Rocks, and someone says "I can make that cheaper/smaller with tiny little surface mount parts, or I can make it bigger/better with expensive parts and the pointier-to-pointiest hand wiring. Sometimes they want you to know its a clone, setting up the parasite/host relationship. Sometimes they just pitch a clone as their own design. All of the above, I'm not a fan of. I understand if you can't afford the real thing but as an artist you reeeeally want to make "that sound" or closest to it. So I don't blame the consumer for buying cheaper/smaller, I'm just not a fan of their existence. In a perfect world I prefer licensing to stealing, consulting to cloning.

The second type is rooted in "you can't get them's no more". I'm helping 65 Amps with exactly that right now. He scored thousands of NOS germanium transistors (PNP) that are fantastic sounding, and extremely consistent. We're doing vintage circuits like the Range Master, Fuzz Face, and Tone Bender MKII. All three would be expensive and very high risk on the used market. Many of them sound bad, few sound great. So these are not only made like a 65 amp, hand wired with full sized amp parts, they each have some additional feature you can toggle. There's always a stock vintage setting somewhere. But the key here is we're not saying "look at his new fuzz circuit we've developed". He's very blatant about the stock setting being a copy of thevibtage circuit, much like Seymour would make a PAF replica. Seymour doesn't wrap up an Antiquity and pitch it as a "new humbucker he designed".

This second type I have no problem with. Even if Sola Sound re-released an exact vintage reissue of their MKII it wouldn't be the same. I've added a gain manipulation circuit that is extremely responsive and interactive with the guitar. Already its "not a clone" in that regard.

Yah the point about a perfect world is well noted... It's really an argument about how much technology should open up over time though. I understand that people make copies of recent (unconventional) circuits - the Klon is a great example of this - but when you're just putting 3 pedals together with a common housing then you get problems with how obvious that would have been, and how far you want protection to extend. Are you protecting something that uses a charge pump in conjunction with a boost? Well how about an overdrive? Two? Using parts and devices that have been around since at least the 70s? I mean, it's all well and good to reward hard work but to allow people to protect it like that creates this perverse incentive to spin wheels. Not saying that's the case here but if there's a system there will be someone to take advantage of it.

Obviously one worries about the EHX soul food but the KTR uses SMD components too and they're going for 4-500 now. No patents or anything whatsoever, although EHX has made a lot more money. So yeah, you'd like to see some of that cash flow to Bill Finnegan, but then again if he had kept making Klons the supply would lessen the hype. So, basically there is no control for this experiment.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

It just really depends.

As a player - it's really about how much I care. Example; Behringer Vintage Phase. Is it a clone of an EVH Phase 90? Maybe maybe not. I think so. Is it AS good? Certainly not. All that said - do I care? Nope. I wasn't spending 50 bones on phaser, let alone 80-100. I just don't care that much. So did I take from the MXR $, no. I just would have gotten another phaser, a used one, or whatever. Or not bought any phaser.

And as always (pay attention to how I say this Drex), am I going to pay tree-giddy for ANY pedal? Nope. I just really do not believe that there isn't way to get the same sound cheaper. I get the boo-geek business model. But again, I'm a Rock guy. Just don't care that much.

Now - my Diaz Tremodillo, or my Holy Grail Reverb….These I wanted! I say Bah humbug to clones. But only because I wanted THAT pedal. But I'm not ever going to tell you there was no other pedal that couldn't do the job, or even do it better. Those just had whatever delusional sonic mojo I imagined they had.

From a business perspective though, yes - I get that cloning should be a no-no. Although, honestly, I think something like the drug market model would be great: For 7 years, NO CLONES. After that - have at it. You get 7 years to become the leader in the pack, or die. Circuits are like chemistry. We can't say you CAN'T put these molecules together ever - because eventually someone else is going to figure it out. Same with diodes and chips. However - we can offer you a reasonable period of time to benefit from the design.

And then there is always the "collector" factor that tanks the market. How many Blues Lawyers have their Klon on a shelf under glass keeping it from a player? Me - I'm a player. So if it takes a clone to get the sound - so be it.

For the record - I went with an original RV-3 instead of the Behringer circuit copy. Why? I wanted Boss sturdy. But I'll get a Joyo US Dream. Why? I'll NEVER buy a Suhr Riot. No dirt box is worth that to me. Probably get a Joyo Analog delay. Is it a clone? Who knows who cares. Is "Analog Delay" really something unique. I guess it depends on how exactly you copy the AD9 circuit or whatever. But again - change a couple of little things - and no one could ever tell the sonic difference in a blind test.

It REALLY comes down to "Would you have bought the original, if not for the clone?" In my case the answer is almost always "no"

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

It's not nearly as deep as you're making it... you just play the gear you like. All that digital stuff sounds like garbage TO ME. I'm a musician and I'm dedicated to my art and I don't give a **** what it costs to sound the way I want to sound. Combined with good luck and working in an industry that deals exclusively with the tools that I use to craft my art, I've been fortunate enough to be able to purchase some amazing equipment for pretty ridiculous deals. I work hard, save money, and buy the **** that works FOR ME, and my handwired tube heads from the late 60's and early 70's sound, feel, and are better FOR ME than is some digital thing that has a billion features I won't use and will be worth dirt in less than a decade because digital technology is constantly being upgraded and improved upon and advertized as now, FINALLY (again), sounding as good as the gear I've been using since before I could drive.

Maybe you grew up using and playing digital stuff and that's why you like it. Maybe your ears are used to digital and solidstate and so that's what you like or prefer. That's totally cool too. As long as you're making music and writing songs, whatever. It's actually to your benefit because most major music retailers will no longer buy that stuff to resale so you can find it for almost nothing on the used market. Cool for you, lame for whoever spent a month's salary on it five years ago.

(I watched the Sunn model T that's my main amp climb from $600 to $2000 in the last ten years. Good luck selling your AxeFX for that in 10 years when computers are built into your clothes.)

I've started using lots of food analogies when it comes to music equipment. Can you imagine a forum like this where people talk about pizza toppings... or what should go on the best sandwich... People would be screaming and ranting and thinking of complex moral justifications for ham vs. turkey, pepperoni vs. sausage, and all kinds of pointless crap. Then you start getting into ordering from Pizza Hut versus some gourmet celebrity chef foodie snob pizza joint or the local mom-n-pop joint or heating up a frozen pie "that tastes almost as good as the real thing" or slapping your own dough yourself........

To each their own, y'know... You like (and play) what you like because you like it. I'll judge your tone after I've decided I like your song so much that I can't stop listening to it.

But to the point of this thread: Building a computer that pretends to sound like a handwired tube amp is not the same thing as building an exact point-for-point copy of a tube amp made by somebody else and claiming yours is better because it costs less.

If a dude was like, "This is my TWEAKED, IMPROVED version of a ZVex Box of Rock with lots of different features I think you'll like," that's not plagiarism, that's innovation. The Line 6 M-series multiFX are digital simulations of pedal boards... GREAT IDEA... I love it... I won't use it, but I can definitely see why people would. It's innovative. It's new technology designed to replace the old. Love it.

If a dude was like, "This is an exact copy of a ZVex Box of Rock I built in my garage and I'll sell it to you for $20 less than Zvex," I'd say, "**** you dude, Zack did the world a favor by making that pedal and you're a dick for trying to take money out of his pocket. Either invent something new and amazing or get a real job, *******."

Clones of handwired 60's Fender amps are okay because Fender doesn't make those anymore and Leo hasn't made a dime from that company in a long time. Taking money out of a working artist's pocket is rude at best, evil at worst. "Hey dude I LOVED that pedal you thought up! Yeah I paid some Chinese kid $14.97 to build me a copy of it! Go **** yourself!" You know what I mean...

Kinda like how seeing a cover band is so completely lame compared to seeing the real thing. Y'know unless it's MY cover band, we're way better than the Sex Pistols ever were.

This is brilliant. Yes. Yes on all accounts.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Original Pedal vs Clone, What Would You Do?

If I can afford an original piece sure I might buy it wether it is a amp, pedal, guitar, etc. But if I want the sound and can't afford the high end piece ill go with the clone because as long as I can close in the ball park i'm good.

Take the Dumble phenomenon for example. If I wanted a D-style amp i'm probably going with a Ceriatone before I pick up a used Dumble but like I said I only want to get in the ball park i'm not looking for exact. Same thing if I want a vintage Marshall ill go with a Ceriatone kit.