Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in series

[dr.barlo]

Hi all,

About the same? I know that if it were to be an a5 PAF kinda pickup, the parallel mode would be quite weak. I don't want that. I know (thanks to freefrog) in terms of the clarity, SD in parallel would be quite good.

You see, my problem is the following guitar (76 deluxe with stock pickups):



I love it's bridge tone (stock pickups measuring 6.15K). It can do the tele kinda tones such as



and real LP tones



I don't wanna lose the clean bridge, tele kinda tones. So if I go for the DiMarzio SD... I am afraid the output may suffer when clean.

Or... I will have to go to custom shop asking for a tapped Deluxe kinda mini HB that can do both... But that's pricey.

Dilemmas!!!

B

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

I wouldn't route it for a full size humbucker because that would ruin its value. The problem with the Deluxe style mini-humbucker is that it's not built like most other pickups. The bridge coil has screws while the neck side coil has a large metal blade with a bottom mounted magnet between the coils. Firebird pickups are built entirely different and have their own tone compared to the Deluxe. The Dimarzio soapbar style humbuckers also have very different construction. Dimarzio now has Deluxe style pickups but I haven't heard any of them. Mojotone has a Deluxe mini with 11K and an alnico 8. GFS does make Deluxe style minis and I have one that's 9.2K but it has a brass baseplate and brass cover which alters the sound. I have thought about putting a silver steel baseplate and cover on it but I don't have a use for that pickup and I'm not sure it would be much of an upgrade? Basically the problem is once you start substituting different ingredients you end up with something very different.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/products/pickups/electric/offset-other
https://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/soap-bar
https://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/mini
https://www.mojotone.com/HumbuckerPickups_x#/
https://www.riograndepickups.com/mini-humbuckings
https://www.guitarfetish.com/Gibson-P90-Soapbar-Style-Mini-Humbuckers_c_237.html

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Vow thanks!

I did not know the Mojo's and GFS'.

I was talking about the Super D soapbar. Nowadays, the search of the forum is weird and not working. But anyways, I could fish out the following thread:

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?274170-The-anatomy-of-1976-Gibson-Deluxe-mini-HBs

Haussel makes some pricey PAF clones to go into Deluxes. Duncan Custom shop also offers HBs to go under a p90 cover and into a p90 route. TV Jones is another alternative but... It's TV Jones... I've used a Rio Grande BBQ and Texas for a while like 15 years ago. At first I've liked them, but then than "texas sizzle" whatever... got to my nerves you know. I've started hating that excessive uppermid push. This guitar has a maple neck, so this uppermid thing could be really pronounced on this guitar. So I don't wanna go Rio Grander because of that.

I wanna keep the current tone of this guitar (already have an ant II neck mini deluxe - love the stock neck so I am not sure if I'll get to use it in this guitar). But "add" the HB mode you know. So inherently I am a bit worried about the Super D.

Any feedback on that?

Thanks in advance!

B

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Got it - you want to install the Super D that fits the guitar route, along with series/parallel switching?

It is definitely worth a try. Super D in parallel is pretty twangy Tele sounding to my ears. And in series it is definitely not thin or weak. I actually prefer the split sound so maybe try that if parallel doesn't do it for you.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

I'll RE check ASAP how a P90 sized Super D wired in parallel sounds comparatively to a mini-hum. Not easy since I'm busy.

In the meantime, let's share a few theoretical things (I write fast and the working day has not started yet so let's do it).

A P90 sized DiMarzio Super D has practically the same resistance and inductance than a full sized one. It has the double thick ceramic mag. It has the brass BP. The only difference is in the smaller bobbins, closer to each others, with a different "coupling" factor affecting slightly the upper harmonics. It's a wee bit weaker too, because of the narrower magnetic windows, but height settings should cure that easily.

In series, it would measure something like 13k and 6.5H to 7H (out of my head, from memories).

In parallel, it should measure +/- 3.25k and an inductance of 1.75H.

In split mode, it would deliver +/- 6.5k & 3.5H.


A Gibson mini-hum measures around 6.5k or 7k and 3.2H (if memory serves me).

A Tele bridge PU would typically exhibits 6k to 10k (depending on the AWG used) and 2.5H to 4H. Let's say 3.2H for average inductance: it's the same than a mini-hum and it explains partly why a mini-hum can appear as "Tele sounding".


What these observations suggest:

-IMHO, there's no need to route a guitar for a full sized Super D when a P90 sized one would do the same job @ 95%.

-If the target is the resistance and inductance of a mini-hum and/or of a Tele bridge SC, the Super D will have to be split: @ 6.5k and 3.5 H, it should mimic a large part of their voicing.

-The Super D in parallel would have a higher pitched resonant peak, giving a thinner tone. It wouldn't necessarily be that weaker thx to its double thick mag...

As usual, the value of all these numbers is RELATIVE: the tone of each PU and mode will depend on the host guitar and on its wiring/pots.

FOOTNOTE - everybody knows that I love useless footnotes that nobody reads nor understands )

I've here some TV Jones classic measuring +/- 4k and a tiny 1.6H to 1.9H. They SHOULD sound weak with such a low inductance...
But they have double thick mags and big mag poles, just like a Super D (and I think that Larry found the Super D original recipe in the architecture of Filter'Tron's, anyway).
When I put a bridge TV Jones Classic in parallel with a 3.3nF capacitor to ground, it sounds almost as loud as a regular P.A.F. replica... and the cap "tunes" the voicing in a convincing P.A.F. way.
So, if a Super D in parallel seems too trebly, a workable solution might be to put a small value cap in parallel with it.

FWIW. See ya!

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Gibson and GFS are the only Deluxe style mini's that I have tried. I received the GFS second hand and it had been direct-mounted in the bridge of a barncaster. It sounded OK in that role. I tried to use it in the neck of a Tele with a Rosewood fretboard and it was too dark. The brass baseplate probably wasn't a negative with this pickup since minis tend to be bright and raspy sounding. Brass baseplates round off the treble and thicken the midrange and bass. However, the cheap brass cover was a negative.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

No way. A SupeD in parallel is gonna be about single coil output. Mini HB is gonna be a 59 at least....

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Got it - you want to install the Super D that fits the guitar route, along with series/parallel switching?

It is definitely worth a try. Super D in parallel is pretty twangy Tele sounding to my ears. And in series it is definitely not thin or weak. I actually prefer the split sound so maybe try that if parallel doesn't do it for you.

Right on!

I intend to buy a Bourns push/pull pot together with the pickup. I'll go for the neck tone I think (it's the pot that I am using the least on this particular guitar).

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

I'll RE check ASAP how a P90 sized Super D wired in parallel sounds comparatively to a mini-hum. Not easy since I'm busy.

In the meantime, let's share a few theoretical things (I write fast and the working day has not started yet so let's do it).

A P90 sized DiMarzio Super D has practically the same resistance and inductance than a full sized one. It has the double thick ceramic mag. It has the brass BP. The only difference is in the smaller bobbins, closer to each others, with a different "coupling" factor affecting slightly the upper harmonics. It's a wee bit weaker too, because of the narrower magnetic windows, but height settings should cure that easily.

In series, it would measure something like 13k and 6.5H to 7H (out of my head, from memories).

In parallel, it should measure +/- 3.25k and an inductance of 1.75H.

In split mode, it would deliver +/- 6.5k & 3.5H.


A Gibson mini-hum measures around 6.5k or 7k and 3.2H (if memory serves me).

A Tele bridge PU would typically exhibits 6k to 10k (depending on the AWG used) and 2.5H to 4H. Let's say 3.2H for average inductance: it's the same than a mini-hum and it explains partly why a mini-hum can appear as "Tele sounding".


What these observations suggest:

-IMHO, there's no need to route a guitar for a full sized Super D when a P90 sized one would do the same job @ 95%.

-If the target is the resistance and inductance of a mini-hum and/or of a Tele bridge SC, the Super D will have to be split: @ 6.5k and 3.5 H, it should mimic a large part of their voicing.

-The Super D in parallel would have a higher pitched resonant peak, giving a thinner tone. It wouldn't necessarily be that weaker thx to its double thick mag...

As usual, the value of all these numbers is RELATIVE: the tone of each PU and mode will depend on the host guitar and on its wiring/pots.

FOOTNOTE - everybody knows that I love useless footnotes that nobody reads nor understands )

I've here some TV Jones classic measuring +/- 4k and a tiny 1.6H to 1.9H. They SHOULD sound weak with such a low inductance...
But they have double thick mags and big mag poles, just like a Super D (and I think that Larry found the Super D original recipe in the architecture of Filter'Tron's, anyway).
When I put a bridge TV Jones Classic in parallel with a 3.3nF capacitor to ground, it sounds almost as loud as a regular P.A.F. replica... and the cap "tunes" the voicing in a convincing P.A.F. way.
So, if a Super D in parallel seems too trebly, a workable solution might be to put a small value cap in parallel with it.

FWIW. See ya!

Thanks in advance!

I gotta tell you, I appreciate all the information (including the details in the footnotes and all) quite a bit. This whole Henry thing that I've learned from your posts actually make lotsa sense to me. I used to go for the resonant peak etc. but still that did not explain why I felt a 7.70K 59n sounded more strat single coil like than say a 7.20K PGn... Even tho that 59n had more output etc. I had a Gauss meter for a while (like 15-20 years ago before it died on me) and comparing a weak a5 with a3 (both having almost the same Gauss) sounded significantly different. Meanwhile, weak a5's and a4's sounded close. So the Gauss reading was important, but still no cigar. But with those inductance figures, it makes way more sense to me. And actually it is kinda straightforward if I think about it. It is about the fq response curve. The same thing that is happening when comparing a reactive load with different inductors. I am thinking of the "Aiken" type of reactive load.

So thanks! I mean it!

I am gonna go over your message in more detail.

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

No way. A SupeD in parallel is gonna be about single coil output. Mini HB is gonna be a 59 at least....

So either I gotta live with the hum (use Super D split as Super D parallel is wimpy), or get me a fancy modded GE-7 to use as a "fat boost" and keep on using the mini...



It is a bummer, because this guitar does Vivian Campell kinda hot rod Marshall LP tones really good even with the minis.

Back to square one...

Duncan custom shop a bit pricey but seems to be the only solid option.

So what say you guys?

B

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

So either I gotta live with the hum (use Super D split as Super D parallel is wimpy), or get me a fancy modded GE-7 to use as a "fat boost" and keep on using the mini...



It is a bummer, because this guitar does Vivian Campell kinda hot rod Marshall LP tones really good even with the minis.

Back to square one...

Duncan custom shop a bit pricey but seems to be the only solid option.

So what say you guys?

B

I would try the Mojotone hot mini. I think that Alnico 8 and 12K resistance would remedy many of the mini's problems.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

But wouldn't I lose the tele kinda tone that I really like?

See?

B

 

[freefrog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Ok, below are some tests done hastily yesterday.

1-"Raw" resonant frequencies of a P90 sized DiMarzio Super Dist in series (black line) vs split (pink line) vs parallel (light brown line, the higher pitched). The blue line with a rounder resonance comes from a mini-humbucker in my Epi Wilshire: as expected, it resonates around the same frequency than the DM in single coil mode... but it has a rounder response and less high freq because of Eddy currents (due to the cover):



2-Below the screeshots of stacked chords, played from unfretted strings to 12th fret, with the guitar plugged DIRECT to the board.
Guitar used: my experimental superstrat with a hole through the body. 500k volume pot. No load tone control. Cable used: a standard 450pF / 10ft one.

a-DiMarzio P90 sized SD in series (orange line) vs parallel (blue line):



b-The same in series (orange line) vs split, coil 1 (the closest to the bridge; blue line):



c-Same thing with in blue the pickup split, coil 2 (the closest to the neck, still in blue):



d-the bridge DM SD in series (orange line) upon the neck mini-hum of my Wilshire (blue line). NOTE: I like the min-hum set far from the strings AND it's not a Gibson mini-hum...



e-The bridge DM SD in series vs another P90 sized DiMarzio in series, neck position (it's a DLX model, pictured in blue here):



e-The bridge DM SD in PARALLEL (orange line) vs the neck mini-hum of my Wilshire (blue line). It's probably the most important pic here, albeit the most "discussible" because of the differences involved... But hey, that's all I can share right now:



f-The bridge DM SD in parallel (orange line) vs the P90 sized neck DM DLX, in series (blue line). As expected, they are mismatched:

 

[freefrog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

And as a postscriptum, the Ableton screen showing the recording levels of these tracks:



Thinner lines = single notes from unfretted low E to high E, 22th fret (NOT pictured above). Thicker black traces = the chords pictured above.

Upper track: DM SD in parallel.

2d upper track: DM SD in series.

3d track: DM SD split, coil 1 then coil 2.

4th track: DM DLX neck in series, then the mini hum of my Wilshire (green track).


NOTE - These pics don't translate any advice or recommandation. They don't show how a DM SD would sound in bridge position of a LP, with a Gibson mini-hum in neck position. They are just meant to give a "rough idea" of what I was talking about in my first answer.

FWIW (= a mere hasty attempt to help a fellow musician or anyone else interested).

 

[Aceman]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Parallel is 1/4 of the Humbucker output.

 

[chadd]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

So either I gotta live with the hum (use Super D split as Super D parallel is wimpy), or get me a fancy modded GE-7 to use as a "fat boost" and keep on using the mini...



It is a bummer, because this guitar does Vivian Campell kinda hot rod Marshall LP tones really good even with the minis.

Back to square one...

Duncan custom shop a bit pricey but seems to be the only solid option.

So what say you guys?

B

I'd go custom shop and even consider sending them your pickup with the caveat that you want the tapped tone to be exactly what you have now. They should be able to get pretty close to what you want. Side note: that's pretty much the perfect looking Norlin for me. I loved Deluxes, especially the maple neck models.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Great info freefrog! I keep looking at those over and over again.

Very cool!

Thanks!

Now, the single split version sounds like more like the mini HB. As I intend to use this guitar for gigging and all, in some places the noise could be an issue. So gotta think.

If I go Duncan custom shop, it looks like a safer option as Chadd is saying. Or leave it be and hit fat boosts as I have been doing...

B :beerchug:

 

[freefrog]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Great info freefrog! I keep looking at those over and over again.

Very cool!

Thanks!

Now, the single split version sounds like more like the mini HB. As I intend to use this guitar for gigging and all, in some places the noise could be an issue. So gotta think.

If I go Duncan custom shop, it looks like a safer option as Chadd is saying. Or leave it be and hit fat boosts as I have been doing...

B :beerchug:

You're welcome.

I keep thinking that parallel wiring might be a viable option (since it's still stronger than the neck mini-hum of my Wilshire)... but the only way to be sure would be to test it and/or to check if your stock neck pickup spits high voltage / hosts a strong mag or not...

Now, the choice is yours: idsnowdog and chadd gave you a couple of alternative solutions that I'd find interesting too.

All that being said: there's various ways to "tune" any pickup with a few passive components added to form a LRC filter.

For example, if a P90 sized DM sounds too weak in parallel, it's possible to leave the whole pickup wired normally (in series) BUT to wire it in parallel with a dummy coil + resistor (+ possibly a capacitor) in order to obtain the requested overall resistance, inductance and resonant peak... the problems are 1)to have access to the components needed and 2)to have a few devices allowing to do reliable measurements.

I have such circuits in several guitars and have mounted equivalent networks for other people (mainly a friend who is a pro musician and uses my tweaks on stage) but I know for a fact that it pften requires some tedious experiments before to work as wanted...

More later. Enjoy in the meantime - you have a glorious guitar that I'd probably leave as it is if it was mine. :beerchug:

EDIT - my guitars host pickups going from super weak to super strong (roughly: 1.2H to 12H; yes, the strongest has ten times more inductance than the weakest). I play ALL of them through the same amps / pedalboards / MFX's without real issues... I just turn a knob here and there and when I need some extra gain, I add an OD or some germanium treble booster... EQ are great tools too.
What I'm trying to say (or to confirm, since you already know it) is that strong pickups are not absolutely required IME and IMHO. They don't even avoid the use of boosters - see Adrian Smith plugging his DiMarzio Super Dist in a mid centric EQ and a TS; LOL...

FWIW (= rambing from an old fart).

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

Cool! Thanks!



I am inclined to keep on using the guitar as it is... In the bridge, it can do this



and this



Maybe get a modded GE-7 !

Joking aside, it is quite a useful pedal actually...

And if I get itchy, I think I am gonna go Duncan Custom shop asking for a tapped mini HB set (or HB under a p90 cover) not sacrificing this 6.20K dlx mini HB tone and "add" a beefier overwound PAF kinda mod. I dunno if it's feasible tho...

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Output comparison: DiMarzio Super D in parallel vs. Gibson Deluxe MiniHB in serie

I'd go custom shop and even consider sending them your pickup with the caveat that you want the tapped tone to be exactly what you have now. They should be able to get pretty close to what you want. Side note: that's pretty much the perfect looking Norlin for me. I loved Deluxes, especially the maple neck models.

I missed the side note...



Cool. I love those honeybursts. I was lucky.

B