P90 output

[Coachmoe]

Greetings!

I recently bought a 2019 Gibson Standard with Gibson P90's in it. I measured the output for both and the bridge reads 7.92K and the neck is 7.86K.
I am possibly considering swapping out pickups for a set of Mojotone quiet coils. They are advertised as having output levels of 8.6K for the bridge and 8K for the neck.

My question is this: will there be a noticeable difference in the outputs / volume by making the swap?

Mathematically, the difference is miniscule.

The Mojotone pickups are quiet, theoretically eliminated the hum. Once upon a time I tried some of the Fralin hum canceling P90's and I didn't care for them.

Looking at Duncan's, there are the P90 Stacks but they have super high readings of 31.6K bridge and 21.4 neck. I assume that they have tremendous output with those numbers?

I must confess that my knowledge of pickups is limited. Any help offered is greatly appreciated.

 

[jeremy]

Re: P90 output

welcome to the forum!

i cant speak for the mojotone but the high numbers for the duncan do not translate to hot output. not much different than a typical 8k gibson p90 in output. resistance numbers are only useful if you know other factors, the stack for example has two coils with basically the same number of turns (at least for this style of stack, the stack plus models are different) and may use different wire than the gibson.

 

[blueman335]

Re: P90 output

I put an A8/A4 magnet combination in bridge P-90's, which increases output, mids, and warmth. Much fuller, richer sound than the stock A5's. Balances better with the neck. A common observation about Gibson P-90's is that the neck usually seems louder, or that the bridge is bright & thin compared to the neck. A magnet change can fix those issues. When you buy new pickups hoping for the best, you can spend a lot of money and still have the tones you were trying to get away from.

 

[AlexR]

Re: P90 output

Fralin are pretty good at the pickup business, and pretty good at making the noiseless/hum cancelling effect not interfere with inherent tone.
If the aspect of the Fralins you didn't like involved them being a bit flat or 1 dimensional, then I'd guess you'd find that effect more than doubly so with other brands.

Another aspect to consider is that stacks in general are twice the size in depth compared with a regular p90. Not all guitars can cope with this, and need routing to accommodate.

 

[allstarrme]

Re: P90 output

I took a set of Gibson p90’s out of a les Paul. About the same output. The neck sounded good but the bridge was thin and weak for my liking. Put in the Duncan stacks, they are noiseless, and a little hotter but missing something from the p90 sparkle. I wired them to switch between series and parallel for some humbucking tones as well as p90. Both noiseless.

The stacked Duncan’s sound Paf ish in series which I like but I should have left the neck Gibson in and gotten a hotter Duncan bridge. I could live with a little noise. I have plenty of good sounding humbuckers, I wanted great p90’s though.

The only noiseless P90’s I have seen anything good about are the Kinmans. They sound great in demo’s but I haven’t bought a set to try them in person.

It’s spend a little for great tone and live with the noise or spend a whole lot for noiseless and unknown tone.

 

[Coachmoe]

Re: P90 output

I put an A8/A4 magnet combination in bridge P-90's, which increases output, mids, and warmth. Much fuller, richer sound than the stock A5's. Balances better with the neck. A common observation about Gibson P-90's is that the neck usually seems louder, or that the bridge is bright & thin compared to the neck. A magnet change can fix those issues. When you buy new pickups hoping for the best, you can spend a lot of money and still have the tones you were trying to get away from.

Blueman, Thanks for the info. I've done some searching on the magnet swap and I think I'm going to try your A8 / A4 suggestion. Gotta think that magnet swaps are cheaper than buying new pickups.

As far as the A8 / A4 combo, which one goes where inside the pickup. A video would help here.I also looked for some videos about swapping magnets in a P90 and there didn't seem to be much out there.

What I haven't looked for yet is a supplier. Are these magnets made in the US or overseas? Any suggestions ?

Thanks for your help.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: P90 output

You are naming resistance figures. They are not the same as "output."

Why are you considering a pickup swap?

 

[Coachmoe]

Re: P90 output

You are naming resistance figures. They are not the same as "output."

Why are you considering a pickup swap?

Itsabass, this is from the Fralin site:

Ohm readings are a useful way of roughly measuring the output between identical pickup designs. This means comparing a Telecaster Bridge to another Telecaster Bridge, or a Stratocaster Neck to another Stratocaster Neck. For example, if you were to take a reading of a Vintage Hot Strat Neck (6K) and compare it to a Blues Special Strat Neck (6.3K), you’ll be able to confidently tell that the Blues Special will give you more output. This is true – the Blues Special has 5% more turns than the Vintage Hot, and roughly 5% more output.

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of pickups is fairly limited. Using the above info from Fralin, to an uneducated, simplistic mind like mine , one can see how I arrived at my conclusion. I've seen this same premise used in other pickup discussions.

I know output is also dependent on the types of magnets, wire gauge and number of turns.

All that being said, I do not like the thinness of the bridge pickup in my 2019 Goldtop. As I'm used to playing humbucker equipped guitars, I'm listening for something that gets me close. The inherent design of the P90 is different from a humbucker and I understand that.

As Blueman335 stated, he's had success swapping out magnets for a little bit more warmth and output. It's a much cheaper option than buying multiple sets of pickups to find something I'm happy with.

 

[Aceman]

Re: P90 output

I have zero familiarity with the pickups you are talking about from Mojotone.

And as said, Resistance ≠ Output

However, in general, it is usually a reasonable indicator. I say don't worry about it, and a mag swap is always easier and cheaper than a pup swap. But it isn't always a possible solution.

 

[AlexR]

Re: P90 output

You can only use Fralins description of K for comparing 2 of his own pickups that are constructed in the same way and wound in the same way. So the same name but 5% underwound for example would work.
Trying to extend that to a pickup mimicking a 54 strat pickup compared to a 62 strat pickup probably won't work. And going to hotter strat pickups where the wire gauge changes is useless.
I know several winders who make pickups with different k reading but act in ways opposite to what the k reading indicates.

 

[daenius]

Re: P90 output

Are you looking for noiseless P90s or just any P90?

Noiseless P90s, no matter the design, will always have slightly less treble. That's because they're basically humbuckers with design variations to make them sound and look like true single-coil P90s. Now that's a good thing if you think your pickups are too thin and harsh sounding. You give up a little bit of that perhaps harsh treble (that you maybe didn't want anyways) for a slight boost in the more "pleasant" frequencies.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: P90 output

Itsabass, this is from the Fralin site:

Ohm readings are a useful way of roughly measuring the output between identical pickup designs. This means comparing a Telecaster Bridge to another Telecaster Bridge, or a Stratocaster Neck to another Stratocaster Neck. For example, if you were to take a reading of a Vintage Hot Strat Neck (6K) and compare it to a Blues Special Strat Neck (6.3K), you’ll be able to confidently tell that the Blues Special will give you more output. This is true – the Blues Special has 5% more turns than the Vintage Hot, and roughly 5% more output.

As I stated earlier, my knowledge of pickups is fairly limited. Using the above info from Fralin, to an uneducated, simplistic mind like mine , one can see how I arrived at my conclusion. I've seen this same premise used in other pickup discussions.

I know output is also dependent on the types of magnets, wire gauge and number of turns.

All that being said, I do not like the thinness of the bridge pickup in my 2019 Goldtop. As I'm used to playing humbucker equipped guitars, I'm listening for something that gets me close. The inherent design of the P90 is different from a humbucker and I understand that.

As Blueman335 stated, he's had success swapping out magnets for a little bit more warmth and output. It's a much cheaper option than buying multiple sets of pickups to find something I'm happy with.

Regardless of what DCR can indicate, the point is that you referred to DCR as output, directly and literally. It is not. It can affect output, but it IS not output. You said, "measured the output," and "output levels of 8.6K". KOhms are not an "output level." They can affect output level, but they ARE not an output level.

 

[Despair]

Re: P90 output

Noiseless P90s, no matter the design, will always have slightly less treble. That's because they're basically humbuckers with design variations to make them sound and look like true single-coil P90s. Now that's a good thing if you think your pickups are too thin and harsh sounding. You give up a little bit of that perhaps harsh treble (that you maybe didn't want anyways) for a slight boost in the more "pleasant" frequencies.

Kinman is supposed to be an exception to the reduced high end issue, or at least be far ahead of everyone else for minimizing the tradeoff. But... price, and are they the particular P-90 sound you want? Also, Kinmans are supposed to be the most complicated construction, less modifiable, and unlikely for magnet swaps.

It's a shame nobody else has applied newer noise reduction & shielding techniques (Stack Plus!) to P-90s. I also wonder about multiple shielding, Bill Lawrence used to argue that single layers of shielding weren't enough for guitar electronics, should use copper AND aluminum foil shielding to block out different bands of noise. Wonder if anyone has applied that to single coil & P-90 pickups. In a low eddy-current & capacitance fashion...

 

[freefrog]

Re: P90 output

Kinman is supposed to be an exception to the reduced high end issue, or at least be far ahead of everyone else for minimizing the tradeoff. But... price, and are they the particular P-90 sound you want? Also, Kinmans are supposed to be the most complicated construction, less modifiable, and unlikely for magnet swaps.

I've got one of his very first P90Hx: IME, as a matter of fact, this pickup IS "an exception to the reduced high end issue". And yes, it's expensive, being made of more than 200 parts... so, effectively, t's not easy to mod (I've actually done four mods on mine to make it more to my liking... but I've renounced to swap its mags: too complicated for an uncertain result).


NOTE replying to the OP: what counts in the output of a P90 is the magnetic circuit (with two bar mags under the coils) + the INDUCTANCE (6 or 7 Henries for a P90): a P90 could measure 4k or 16k of DCR, it wouldn't sound THAT different as long as its inductance and magnetic circuit stay the same.

NOTE to the note: with a same inductance and magnetic circuit, the difference between a 4k P90 and a 16k one would be of 1.5dB @ resonant frequency and less than 1dB @ other frequencies (the LESS resistive being the LOUDEST in this case. LOL).

It's a shame nobody else has applied newer noise reduction & shielding techniques (Stack Plus!) to P-90s. I also wonder about multiple shielding, Bill Lawrence used to argue that single layers of shielding weren't enough for guitar electronics, should use copper AND aluminum foil shielding to block out different bands of noise. Wonder if anyone has applied that to single coil & P-90 pickups. In a low eddy-current & capacitance fashion...

FWIW, I've tried to apply the Ilitch designed "air coil" to P90's and it didn't work for me until now. The Ilitch air coil is among the best noise cancelling solutions for Fender style pickups, with a low DCR and inductance. With their higher number of turns, P90's require a way thicker air coil (unless it's wired on a really wider perimeter, at least as vast as the body of the guitar). It impacts the tone noticeably and sounds more noisy / less realistic (!) than something like the Kinman aforementioned.

Now, I've a P90 coil mounted as a noise cancelling bobbin in a guitar with P90's: even paired with the LRC network that I've added to it, it's really not a perfect solution since it necessarily changes the output level and/or tone of the pickups... BUT it cancels the noise efficiently, it still sounds nice with high gain AND it's a recipe which is CHEAP / easy to apply.

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: P90 output

Have you tried adjusting the pickup and polepiece heights?. You should always try this before even considering changing out a pickup. If you want to fatten the tone, lower the polepieces and raise the pickup up closer to the strings. I can't believe how many people start changing out perfectly good pickups without first doing some simple adjustments.
Al

 

[Coachmoe]

Re: P90 output

Regardless of what DCR can indicate, the point is that you referred to DCR as output, directly and literally. It is not. It can affect output, but it IS not output. You said, "measured the output," and "output levels of 8.6K". KOhms are not an "output level." They can affect output level, but they ARE not an output level.

ItsaBass,

You seem intent on pointing out that I made a mistake. The mistake is due to lack of knowledge and practical experience with the P90's. Your point is understood; no need to beat me up over it.

 

[Coachmoe]

Re: P90 output

Zombiwoof, I have tinkered with the adjustment. I will try to fine tune it.

 

[Coachmoe]

Re: P90 output

Have you tried adjusting the pickup and polepiece heights?. You should always try this before even considering changing out a pickup. If you want to fatten the tone, lower the polepieces and raise the pickup up closer to the strings. I can't believe how many people start changing out perfectly good pickups without first doing some simple adjustments.
Al

Ok, so I screwed the pole pieces down as low as they would go. Raised up bridge PU up a good deal, higher on treble side. Also lowered the neck PU down as well. Played through both my DRRI and Dr. Z Maz 18. Seems to have made a noticeable difference. Have a gig this coming weekend so I'll see how it sounds for the gig. Thanks for the advice!:arms::arms::arms:

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: P90 output

Ok, so I screwed the pole pieces down as low as they would go. Raised up bridge PU up a good deal, higher on treble side. Also lowered the neck PU down as well. Played through both my DRRI and Dr. Z Maz 18. Seems to have made a noticeable difference. Have a gig this coming weekend so I'll see how it sounds for the gig. Thanks for the advice!:arms::arms::arms:

Good to hear!. I think a lot of players change out their pickups without trying to dial them in with adjustments. A lot of times, just adjusting those pickup and polepiece heights will get the results you want, and you will save some money over changing out the pickups.
Al

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: P90 output

ItsaBass,

You seem intent on pointing out that I made a mistake. The mistake is due to lack of knowledge and practical experience with the P90's. Your point is understood; no need to beat me up over it.

You are not getting beat up. I made a technical point, which you then replied to in a way that did not make it clear you "got" it. So I explained the point in more detail.