PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

[SJ318]

Hi, Fun Stuff
I just found my real, verified true 58-60 PAF magnet I thought I had lost in 1973. Cleaning my condo with help, my sister said , "You want this?" It was wrapped up just like I remembered. I jumped over the table and grabbed it.
This came from a set of pickups (PAF) out of a Gold Top LP that this guy didn't want when I was kid. I bought them for 100 bucks for the set. I sold one as I was flat broke, for a good price back then, and asked if I could swap mags. The guy said yes. So I wrapped it up for the future, and never saw it again. My other PAF I sold a few years ago for about 1,500.00 bucks of custom guitar build and re-finishing I needed on a chambered Strat, as I needed a light guitar much more that a PAF.
So, digging into my huge bag of old p'ups, I found my original gold covered T-Top from my '68 Les Paul Custom. Plus 3 other T-tops. The gold one measured at 8.2 resistance.The other T-Tops were around 7.5.
The old gold one (cover is off) is crusted with a patina of rust, chipped gold finish, general age. Should I lightly SMOOTH OFF all the crap on top of the slugs and screws? or just LEAVE IT ALONE? I will be installing it this week and am excited about the whole thing. The Mag is VERY roughcast, and also has that patina on it, but not on the sides, so I will leave that alone.
Thanks,
Steve Buffington

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

If you play it, the patina is going to come off on your hands anyway, so I'm sure there's a safe method to lightly remove it without damaging the pickup. Nice score. Especially something you already had - vintage stuff for free.

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Just put it in my LP Jr., and tried it against a jazz bridge. The TTop read 8.2k, the jazz neck (in bridge position in my SG for a trial) read 7.6, but sounded louder and full, by a long shot. That PAF mag must be seriously de-gaussed. But it did have a certain "character" that made each string sound equal in volume, I don't remember the word for that.
Tomorrow I will run each through my Princeton Reverb on 4-5 to get a feel for the difference at a decent volume, but I must do it quickly before the neighbors call the cops, and they have called the cops on me.
The p'up's got a crisp kind of feel to it that the jazz doesn't on chords. So we shall see. It does remind me of the other full PAF, but that one was LOUD at 9.2 or so, talk about being "not all the same"!! But still, a sound that was crispy in a certain way.
Thanks for listening,
Steve Buffington

 

[Aceman]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

If you are juice about it, more power to you.

I say old magnet is old magnet. T-Top is meh. Old magnet will do nothing or add to the meh, if that is what you are looking for.

YMMV

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Aceman-
Seeing that a PAF mag is something that most PAF aficionados would be excited about, as it is one of the MAIN ingredients of all those PAF's, maybe it would be less "meh" when added to a Seth Lover, or '59. To be even more to the point, would you NOT be interested in having a real piece of history and lore yourself? Are all old things like a PAF just "old things" with you?
Would you really say and old PAF is just an old pickup, and you could not care less about it?
This is NOT me being sarcastic, it is just me being curious.
Steve B.

 

[AlexR]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

There are quite a lot of differences in the way the old mag's composition influences a pickup's tone by comparison to new ones.

And yes, I have tried old and new of the same type in the same pickup......it is night and day if you have the ears, and rig, that will allow such subtleties to come through.

Steve - I'm excited for you.......even if others haven't got the ability to appreciate old things. I think Ace is way more into his Duncan Distortions and the sort of 'no nuance' that comes with the type of music that gets played when you have that sort of pickup.
I have old 50's pickups....new pickups with vintage magnets and new pickups wound with wire made in the 50's. Plus I have a couple of sets of t-tops........they certainly aren't meh with me playing them.
If you have the chops and style, all of those things really make a huge difference.

 

[freefrog]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

The p'up's got a crisp kind of feel to it that the jazz doesn't on chords. [...] the other full PAF [...] was LOUD at 9.2 or so, talk about being "not all the same"!! But still, a sound that was crispy in a certain way.

Remember what I told you a while back about some vintage materials, Steve? That's the key IMHO.

As you know, I've also this feeling that old PU's sound in a particular way that modern transducers won't reproduce. Personally, I've no regret at all to have repaired once a patent sticker T-Top for a friend: even with the rewound coil that I've put in it, this thing had an unmistakable vintage character (and was orgasmic to play for us).

Enough meaningless rambling from the frog: glad to know that you've resurrected a part of your youth. Enjoy!

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Thanks ALL of you.
I found an older Jazz with a reading of 8.2K Just like my patent sticker T-Top, so still juiced as Aceman would say, I put it in my SG and compared again. Difference was, the volume still seemed louder on the Jazz, hell, it WAS louder, but the thing is, on my PAF mag T-Top the notes still sounded very crisp, no doubt, no need for a blind test at all.
I played them on my Princeton Reverb with vol on 5, quickly, but just enough time to say this with certainty, the words are "note separation", and a cutting type of attack, again - this time really "crisp", and I dare to use this reference AGAIN, but damn, it did sound like Mike Bloomfields' guitar on Super Session. THAT kind of crisp. That is what I mean by "crisp".
I have a new Custom Shop Seth Lover coming for my newest build, a Clapton "Browny" two tone burst, custom maple neck, and I got it for a song and 90 bucks. It is very, very light, 5.5 pounds (must be basswood or some other, even lighter wood) for my back, so this will be my new main guitar, I asked MJ for a double white, RC A5 mag, and no accidental wax potting. I believe it will sound great to me. I have come to like the sound of RC mags, so since they had no UOA5's I chose this magnet (A2 not for me).
I will go with it, but will soon put that old PAF mag in it and compare them with my other Seth Lover that has an RCA5 in it. Then we'll really see. Being that I am mostly a shut in, this should be no surprise that it does blow my skirt up! And proud of it too. Thanks for the positive feedback, I AM excited about it.
Thank you,
SJ318

 

[Discharged]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

With nowadays' technology, is more than feasible to reproduce old magnets, given you actually physically have a sample. The mass spectrometer takes care of the actual alloy, and the electronic microscope takes care of the crystal lattice molecular structure, calculating the timing of the annealing process, so a clone with the precise characteristics can be made.

So, no more "old against new" endless discussions are necessary.

/Peter

 

[jeremy]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

I've never seen or heard of a ttop that hot. They were all pretty damn consistent by that point. You sure it isn't something else?

 

[AlexR]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

With nowadays' technology, is more than feasible to reproduce old magnets, given you actually physically have a sample. The mass spectrometer takes care of the actual alloy, and the electronic microscope takes care of the crystal lattice molecular structure, calculating the timing of the annealing process, so a clone with the precise characteristics can be made.

So, no more "old against new" endless discussions are necessary.

/Peter

Well.....to a degree yes. They are available....but given most mags are not made this way, and also most wouldn't be prepared to buy the $30/unit Throbak mags it still doesn't change the fact that most people's magnet they buy doesn't sound the same.

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Jeremy,
It IS a T-Top. They came out of my '68 LPCustom. The other ones are around 7.5K. I do know what a t-top looks like. I have 3 or 4. Funny you should mention, both t-tops that came out of that guitar always sounded better to me than the late 6o's and early '70's t-tops. I did not know why, I did not know you could measure them, I knew NOTHING about pickup. A fellow guitarist and I kept putting in different t-tops in our guitars, He had about 4 or 5 and we still could not find one that sounded as good as my pickups. We even tried to figure out if the direction of the T on the top of the pickups meant something. Some pointed toward each other, some had both t's pointing in one direction. - drove us nuts.
Steve B.

 

[Aceman]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Perhaps that one was rewound?

 

[Aceman]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Just put it in my LP Jr., and tried it against a jazz bridge. The TTop read 8.2k, the jazz neck (in bridge position in my SG for a trial) read 7.6, but sounded louder and full, by a long shot. That PAF mag must be seriously de-gaussed. But it did have a certain "character" that made each string sound equal in volume, I don't remember the word for that.
Tomorrow I will run each through my Princeton Reverb on 4-5 to get a feel for the difference at a decent volume, but I must do it quickly before the neighbors call the cops, and they have called the cops on me.
The p'up's got a crisp kind of feel to it that the jazz doesn't on chords. So we shall see. It does remind me of the other full PAF, but that one was LOUD at 9.2 or so, talk about being "not all the same"!! But still, a sound that was crispy in a certain way.
Thanks for listening,
Steve Buffington

I am above all things a pragmatist and a realist. The fact that something is old means it is old. I know enough about vintage 50's pickups to know that they vary far and wide. Some are total crap, some are awesome. I do ascribe that a fortunate accident of awesome will always beat someone who woke up and decided to create awesome intentionally.

As for the magnet - what is it? A2, A5, A4, etc...Is it some other odd combo of material. What is the charge. Odss are good it as fully juiced as the day it was made. Then again, maybe not. And if not...where on the degas curve is it and how long will it last.

Am I in love with the idea of certain things? Sure.

But if we put 5 different mags in a pickup, and you gave it a listen, would select it as THE one? I doubt it. Could you tell it is different? Perhaps. Could Seymour whip up a pickup that sounds better than that in said guitar - I suspect so.

I play a Pearly Gates that I have wound to 9k. Maybe it sounds even more awesome with a regular old A2 magnet.

 

[freefrog]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Well.....to a degree yes. They are available....but given most mags are not made this way, and also most wouldn't be prepared to buy the $30/unit Throbak mags it still doesn't change the fact that most people's magnet they buy doesn't sound the same.

+1...

And anyway, a pickup isn't only a magnet. There's also the wire and its insulation... and the alloys used for the keeper bar, slugs and screws and how these parts were milled - or not... and hoiw age has corrupted these materials, in several ways...

Old pickups had nothing special by themselves: they were simplistic devices made of crude/imperfect materials assembled fastly in a really "artisanal" way.

BUT...

They have "set" our "tonal" memory...

AND...

Some of them are kinda "happy accidents" whose specs defy analysis.

For example, I've still to find a single coil like the 1962 neck Strat pup that I consider as my benchmark; it has an inductance to DCR ratio that I've never noticed with ANY other single coil. And when I test its rod mags with our lab teslameter, the results are simply unique.

Consequence: this pickup has a "special" sound. It has nothing to do with idealization since it's due to idiosyncratic specs measured with lab gear.

Now, to each musician his preferences and opinion and it's all good.

Steve, sorry for the OT. Again, enjoy!

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

As they say,
It's all cool. BTW, "sorry for the OT"? I don't get it. As far as my enthusiasm for an old pickup mag, I just like old things that could be very unique. Maybe this is a crap mag. But I will try it Seth Lover to Seth Lover when my new one makes it in the mail. Good info freeform, AlexR. Discharged, jeremy, thanks for chiming in, I'll close this thread tomorrow if there are no more things anyone feels like saying.
I understand you Aceman. I guess I just don't get out much.
SJ

 

[Aceman]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

And yes - I get the "It's an original 59 PAF mag". It is cool and unique. But because of rareness - not inherent god-given sonic mojo (which it may also have, or not....doin't know...)

 

[SJ318]

Re: PAF Mag with OLD T-Top

Thanks Aceman,
You get the last word. Time to close. I'll report if any excitement happens between the 2 Seth Lovers with the 2 very different mags.
Thanks, Guys.
Steve