Painting and Finishing Experts...

Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

The acrylic water based poly should be fine for the decal but the paint should be lacquer and not enamel even though it might be compatible.

You'd be better off with a can of Dupli-Color's premium lacquer from Auto Zone IMHO.

Were you gonna brush that on? Minwax gas some great spray poly lacquers...
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

yea, it's bit cold outside for me to paint, and i don't have an indoor spray area.

do you think brush-on will be okay ?

i've never heard of lacquer paint...how is it different than oil or enamel ?
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

If it's just a headstock, you wouldn't be spending much time outdoors. Just a quick pfft pffft pffft and run back inside and let the guitar sit on the porch as long as temperatures are above 50 degrees and the humidity is under 50%.

Minwax makes a brush lacquer and also makes a great rub on poly, but the decal needs to be sprayed so as to not disturb it after it sets.

But I would return that stuff and go to the auto parts store and get a can of Dupli-Color black lacquer and a can of their clear coat (The Premium stuff is in a blue labeled can and only runs around $5 a pop).

The Auto Parts store will have the high grit sandpaper you need for the finishing process too... the hardware store only goes up to 400 grit and you will need to go 1000-3000 to get a beautiful finish. The auto Parts store also has Pre-Val sprayers for when you want to inexpensively mix and spray stuff that doesn't come in rattle cans.

The auto supply store also has a wide selection of micro fiber stuff along with the Scratch-X you will need to polish with, getting the swirls and tiny scratches out of the finish for a flawless sheen.

Mixing lacquers and enamels can be a recipe for disaster.. Lacquer goes underneath enamel quite well, but not the other way around like you've got set up. Every now and then, lacquers and enamels can go together well, but it is not the norm.

Stick with one brand and go all of the way with it. Many brands and lines are not compatible with each other and compatibility always increases within a brand's finish line. Nitro lacquer with nitro clear coats... Poly lacquer with poly clear coats etc. Also, keep the water based with the water based and the oil based with the oil based.

As far as why guitar companies use lacquer over enamel is most likely due to faster drying times and thinner coats vs durability and longevity.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

Brushing can look OK if you sand and polish well afterward. But a spray application will be quicker, cleaner, and will inherently look better with much less work.

But, honestly, I would not use latex paint on a guitar, and I also would not top coat it with poly. I'd just get a can of Reranch black, and a can of Deft gloss lacquer from the hardware store and spray it indoors. Those are definitely compatible with each other, and with decals. Plus lacquer is super easy to work with, as it is self leveling and dries very quickly. It is also very easy to repair any goof ups you might make when using lacquer. Drips, orange peel, fingerprints, dust, etc. are all easy to cover up with lacquer...in the rare chance that you get such problems spraying such a small surface.

Do you have a garage you can spray in? If so, I'd do that. Overspray and fumes will not really be a hazard with such a small surface, especially if you jury rig a painting booth with at least three walls. It could be something as simple as a small butcher paper tent.

You do want to wait to spray until there isn't a lot of humidity, and you do want to warm your spray cans in a bucket of hot water before and during spraying.

"Lacquer" simply means that the finish "dries" via evaporation of the solvent, as opposed to "curing" via chemical reactions, like polyurethane. There are three main components in lacquers. The binder is the "solid" that becomes your hard finish in the end. The pigment is what gives it its color. The solvent is what makes it a liquid for application, and then evaporates out, leaving only the binder and pigment behind. With nitrocellulose lacquers, that's usually something like lacquer thinner or acetone.

What exactly do you mean by a cellophane decal?
 
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Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

But, honestly, I would not use latex paint on a guitar, and I also would not top coat it with poly. I'd just get a can of Reranch black, and a can of Deft gloss lacquer from the hardware store and spray it indoors. .

+1
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

You can spray lacquer in cold weather. I will be spraying today and it is in the 30s. Warm the can in hot tap water for 10-15 mins first. I do this even if it is warm enough outside to improve flow. While it is warming, shake every few minutes to help distribute the heat
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

thank you all...will one can of of top coat be enough ?

You'll probably only use up to a quarter can if that.

You can spray lacquer in cold weather. I will be spraying today and it is in the 30s. Warm the can in hot tap water for 10-15 mins first. I do this even if it is warm enough outside to improve flow. While it is warming, shake every few minutes to help distribute the heat

You are making me want to spray today. :1:
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

okay i returned the other stuff and got this.

is this okay ?

it's an AllParts Fender Bullet Truss Rod Neck. only the headstock will be painted. the whole neck will be finished.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

okay i returned the other stuff and got this.

is this okay ?

it's an AllParts Fender Bullet Truss Rod Neck. only the headstock will be painted. the whole neck will be finished.

Yup, those will work just fine.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

thank you dominus.

is there a Deft finish that will work with that paint ? the Deft finishes that i have seen look really nice.

is there a drawback to using Deft ?
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

okay i returned the other stuff and got this.

is this okay ?

it's an AllParts Fender Bullet Truss Rod Neck. only the headstock will be painted. the whole neck will be finished.

Great job gathering supplies! You will also need some of that blue painter's tape to mask the headstock face with... go slow with the masking so you can get a nice razor sharp edge on the face of the headstock. Oh, and get some Naptha which you will want to wipe the headstock with before you spray it.

Make sure that the headstock face is well sanded and free of dust and particles.

Practice for a few minutes spraying on some cardboard or wood scraps and notice at what arm length you need to spray at where you get lots of coverage but not too close as to cause runs from overspraying.

It is ALWAYS better to come back and do another coat than to spray too much and get a run... RUNS WILL SCREW YOU UP THE MOST when using rattle cans. The next thing that will screw you up is "spitting". To avoid spitting, shake the living hell out of the can and put it in a X-Large drink cup full of pretty damn warm water for about 5-15 minutes before you spray.

This will probably take three separate sessions to do correctly.

Day One or Session 1). So, your first coat should be a nice coat or two of clear lacquer right onto the headtsock face. You will wait for that to dry and lightly sand it a bit with some 1000 grit... since it is a headstock face, you could use a sanding block to good effect. Make sure that it is as smooth as a baby's butt... the smoothness of your color coats will depend upon the smoothness of the headstock before you start the color. After the first coat or two of clear is dried and sanded, you can start laying down the color

Day Two or Session 2). Rub down headstock with Naptha. Then, Lay down around 3 coats of black on the headstock face... make sure you shake the black can a little extra and use a little warmer temperature water with a bit longer sitting time since you absolutely don't want it to spit. Color coats shouldn't be sanded which is why you laid down a couple of coats of clear and made sure that that surface is as smooth as possible.

Day Three or Session 3). Rub down headstock with Naptha. Then, Lay down a few clear coats over the black and make sure that the headstock looks good and right to you after a little sanding with 1000 and then 3000 to buff it up. You my want to use some of the Scratch-X now to make sure that the headstock face is fine scratch and swirl free after the nitro sets. Wipe down with Naptha and let it cure for two weeks.

Then, you can apply the decal. If it is printed on an inkjet printer, you will need some sort of inkjet "fixer"... BTW, the best decals are dry transfer not waterslide, but I do understand that the majority of decals out there are of the waterslide type. In my scale modeling days... waterslide decals were a bit of a ***** to work with. They tend to want to swim around the precise location you want it to go and can easily tear or rip.

Once the decal is applied and is totally dry (wait until the next day just to be safe) you can apply the final clear coats that will "melt" the edges of the decal into the previous lacquer coats. As many coats as needed... headstock's need to be pretty lacquered up since you can bang the crap out of it. Obviously, you don't want too much lacquer but you also do not want to little either. Your eyes will most likely signal that you are done.

Light sanding with 1000 grit to knock down the "orange peel" and 3000 to get out the marks left by the 1000 grit. Scratch-X to get out the fine scratches and swirls and wax for a protective shine.

This will most likely take 4-5 days if you do it right. As a beginner, your biggest strength will come from working slowly... likewise, as a beginner your biggest weakness will come from working too fast. Speeding up the process can only lead to failure... PLEASE DON'T RUSH THIS, YOU WILL BE SORRY.

So, if you shoot the day before and sand the next day... clear all dust and wipe down with Naptha before spraying again (VERY IMPORTANT). The best tool for that is one of those little plastic bulb manual air blowers that photographers use to blow out their cameras with.

thank you dominus.

is there a Deft finish that will work with that paint ? the Deft finishes that i have seen look really nice.

is there a drawback to using Deft ?

Absolutely not and straight nitro lacquer is the preferred clear coat if you can get it. Nitro over acrylic was the Fender formula back in the day, it's a bit easier to work with than acrylic and makes decals look GREAT because of the extra melting of the nitro coats into each other.

Deft takes a bit longer to cure... same with the Minwax nitro. The guys that make the rattle cans specifically for guitars and instruments (ReRanch, Ohio Valley Nitro, Gracey's lacquer, StewMac's colortone and Behlen's stringed instrument lacquer) will cure much more rapidly.
 
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Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

Great job gathering supplies! You will also need some of that blue painter's tape to mask the headstock face with... go slow with the masking so you can get a nice razor sharp edge on the face of the headstock. Oh, and get some Naptha which you will want to wipe the headstock with before you spray it.

Make sure that the headstock face is well sanded and free of dust and particles.

Practice for a few minutes spraying on some cardboard or wood scraps and notice at what arm length you need to spray at where you get lots of coverage but not too close as to cause runs from overspraying.

It is ALWAYS better to come back and do another coat than to spray too much and get a run... RUNS WILL SCREW YOU UP THE MOST when using rattle cans. The next thing that will screw you up is "spitting". To avoid spitting, shake the living hell out of the can and put it in a X-Large drink cup full of pretty damn warm water for about 5-15 minutes before you spray.

This will probably take three separate sessions to do correctly.

Day One or Session 1). So, your first coat should be a nice coat or two of clear lacquer right onto the headtsock face. You will wait for that to dry and lightly sand it a bit with some 1000 grit... since it is a headstock face, you could use a sanding block to good effect. Make sure that it is as smooth as a baby's butt... the smoothness of your color coats will depend upon the smoothness of the headstock before you start the color. After the first coat or two of clear is dried and sanded, you can start laying down the color

Day Two or Session 2). Rub down headstock with Naptha. Then, Lay down around 3 coats of black on the headstock face... make sure you shake the black can a little extra and use a little warmer temperature water with a bit longer sitting time since you absolutely don't want it to spit. Color coats shouldn't be sanded which is why you laid down a couple of coats of clear and made sure that that surface is as smooth as possible.

Day Three or Session 3). Rub down headstock with Naptha. Then, Lay down a few clear coats over the black and make sure that the headstock looks good and right to you after a little sanding with 1000 and then 3000 to buff it up. You my want to use some of the Scratch-X now to make sure that the headstock face is fine scratch and swirl free after the nitro sets. Wipe down with Naptha and let it cure for two weeks.

Then, you can apply the decal. If it is printed on an inkjet printer, you will need some sort of inkjet "fixer"... BTW, the best decals are dry transfer not waterslide, but I do understand that the majority of decals out there are of the waterslide type. In my scale modeling days... waterslide decals were a bit of a ***** to work with. They tend to want to swim around the precise location you want it to go and can easily tear or rip.

Once the decal is applied and is totally dry (wait until the next day just to be safe) you can apply the final clear coats that will "melt" the edges of the decal into the previous lacquer coats. As many coats as needed... headstock's need to be pretty lacquered up since you can bang the crap out of it. Obviously, you don't want too much lacquer but you also do not want to little either. Your eyes will most likely signal that you are done.

Light sanding with 1000 grit to knock down the "orange peel" and 3000 to get out the marks left by the 1000 grit. Scratch-X to get out the fine scratches and swirls and wax for a protective shine.

This will most likely take 4-5 days if you do it right. As a beginner, your biggest strength will come from working slowly... likewise, as a beginner your biggest weakness will come from working too fast. Speeding up the process can only lead to failure... PLEASE DON'T RUSH THIS, YOU WILL BE SORRY.

So, if you shoot the day before and sand the next day... clear all dust and wipe down with Naptha before spraying again (VERY IMPORTANT). The best tool for that is one of those little plastic bulb manual air blowers that photographers use to blow out their cameras with.

thank you, thank you very much for your very detailed info. 4-5 days isn't bad at all. even if i thought i'd get it all done today. [it never ceases to amaze me how long things take. one time i built a bookcase that i thought would be done in two days. it took 4 months, but it was absolutely perfect. :28: ]

looks like i'll need more supplies. i'm not familiar with Naptha. i think i've found (online) the Scratch-X that will be needed.

i like waterslides because you can slide em around until they are positioned absolutely right. i never tried to top coat one though.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

looks like i'll need more supplies. i'm not familiar with Naptha. i think i've found (online) the Scratch-X that will be needed.

Naptha a.k.a. lighter fluid. Good general purpose relatively mild solvent / surface cleaner. Home Depot or your local HW store should have it in the paint dept. It usually comes in pint or qt cans
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

thank you, thank you very much for your very detailed info. 4-5 days isn't bad at all. even if i thought i'd get it all done today. [it never ceases to amaze me how long things take. one time i built a bookcase that i thought would be done in two days. it took 4 months, but it was absolutely perfect. :28: ]

looks like i'll need more supplies. i'm not familiar with Naptha. i think i've found (online) the Scratch-X that will be needed.

i like waterslides because you can slide em around until they are positioned absolutely right. i never tried to top coat one though.

Sounds like you have a scale modeling background which will be sooooo useful for the skillset needed to tackle this. If you feel comfortable with waterslide decals, then power to you brother!!!!!!!!!

Naptha can be found at your hardware store... a can will last you a good while and is the cleaner of choice for lacquer finishes. Absolutely indispensable for us DYI guys.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

...... i like waterslides because you can slide em around until they are positioned absolutely right. i never tried to top coat one though.

You don't specify whether you made your own waterslide or bought it. Most waterslides I've seen came with instructions. Some recommend giving the decal a couple of mist coats of lacquer before applying, and always it is recommended to begin the clear over the decal when it's attached to the headstock with several very fine coats to minimise 'shock' to the decal.
 
Re: Painting and Finishing Experts...

Sounds like you have a scale modeling background which will be sooooo useful for the skillset needed to tackle this. If you feel comfortable with waterslide decals, then power to you brother!!!!!!!!!

Naptha can be found at your hardware store... a can will last you a good while and is the cleaner of choice for lacquer finishes. Absolutely indispensable for us DYI guys.

i think i should take your advice to not rush it. shame as it's such a perfect day outside - possibly the last 75 degree day this year. rain and 50's for the rest of the week.

i think i should go ahead and try to hook up an indoor paint booth. not too much trouble, but more than i had anticipated. and considering that i need more supplies and some more thought on preparation, it is probably best to take my time with it.

i have already taped off the neck and i think i did a pretty good job. how long can painters tape be left on the [stock already painted and finished body] and [unfinished neck] before it starts to effect the color of the body paint and neck ?

i have found that when painting walls, painters tape should be removed 45min-2 hrs after painting, but this a different situation. should i remove the painters tape from both body and neck until i'm ready to have at it again ?
 
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