Passing Judgement on Modelers!

[Chris6542]

I feel compelled to defend modelers, new and old, as so many guys have hastily passed judgement without a deep dive into capabilities. If you haven't spent hours and hours and hours creating your own patches, exploring all sound tailoring options, and downloaded custom IRs, you have no business assessing a unit! First, never judge a unit on presets, which were historically just placeholders, or something to start with, as you tailor your own presets. I've always had a Digitech RP360XP for the "decent" sounds, looper, & drum machine, but had never dove into the Nexus software on laptop to create my own patches. Wow!! In creating patches from scratch, I was floored how good it can sound, and nothing like the rolled off "wet blanket" sound present in so many presets. It really sounds fine, but only if you get away from presets and start fresh. My Headrush pedalboard is a similar story, with all stock presets big and round, lacking upper end, but create presets (rigs) from scratch tailoring the amp EQ, custom EQ, effects, and cabs/IRs and it sounds so good! It took me about 4 hours on the RP360XP in the Nexus software to discover what it can do, and about 5 or 6 hours on Headrush to see the same. NOW, having spent alot of time with these units, I feel qualified to pass judgement. Also, IMHO, the back end: cab sims/IRs is half the sound. Pick the wrong cab model or IR and the whole thing will underachieve bigtime. Half your sound is the output stage, cab sim/IRs, which you can download for any modern unit. Even something as inexpensive on the used market ($100) as the RP360XP, with very respectable tones, Nexus laptop software to tweak, drum machine, and looper, it's an amazing deal! Now, to the credit of Fractal, their presets sound very nice out of the box as in the case with my AX8, a unit that can produce tones so gorgeous you just end up staring at the speakers, no joke. So, please give any modeler a fair shake by exploring it's capabilities, odds are your modeler is much more capable than you have been giving it credit for.

 

[NegativeEase]

I dont know anyone on here who think modelers are bad or sound bad on here. It's pretty unanimous that they can sound awesome.

Maybe you are confusing someone having preference for other things over a modeler.

 

[Mincer]

I could see this opinion on other forums. But here, we accept that everyone has their own path to their sound. I use modelers most of the time, but still love my 6v6 tube amp (but hate carrying around a Mesa).

 

[Chris6542]

You must be kidding NegativeEase. If I had a nickel for every time I heard Helix owners dog Headrush pedalboards as sounding fake, digital, and bad, I would be rich. You claim that everyone thinks everything sounds great is laughable. People who may try a Headrush may not like the largely round tones in the presets, little do they know the character can be changed alot building your own patches. You can't be serious that "everyone thinks everything sounds great".

 

[El Dunco]

IRs are as much as half the sound as the speakers and cabinet in a stack are the most responsible for the final tone and a different cab makes the most drastic difference over tubes, capacitors, pickups and so on.

 

[NegativeEase]

You must be kidding NegativeEase. If I had a nickel for every time I heard Helix owners dog Headrush pedalboards as sounding fake, digital, and bad, I would be rich. You claim that everyone thinks everything sounds great is laughable. People who may try a Headrush may not like the largely round tones in the presets, little do they know the character can be changed alot building your own patches. You can't be serious that "everyone thinks everything sounds great".

You just made up a fake quote ^^^ for me. I never said that -What is wrong with you? Reread what I said.

Second who the f*ck doesnt know that you need to play with modelers to get the sound like you want -It's like a child's advice.

 

[El Dunco]

Second who the f*ck doesnt know that you need to play with modelers to get the sound like you want -It's like a child's advice.

It’s less that they don’t know and more that they’re being wilfully obtuse and using their first impressions of the worst sounding presets as confirmation bias to reassure themselves there’s “no way” any modeller could come close practically to the thousands they dropped on all tube for retail price just for no other reason than they’re sure “it’s better” and don’t want to hear anything that could inspire buyer’s remorse.

 

[NegativeEase]

It’s less that they don’t know and more that they’re being wilfully obtuse and using their first impressions of the worst sounding presets as confirmation bias to reassure themselves there’s “no way” any modeller could come close practically to the thousands they dropped on all tube for retail price just for no other reason than they’re sure “it’s better” and don’t want to hear anything that could inspire buyer’s remorse.

Is that the average experience on this forum? I haven't seen much of this at all on SDUFG unless it's somebody joining for a second trolling or fake outrage -To my experience members here have been high on the modeler products for many years and understand this -long before I posted anything too -Maybe Im missing all these threads on here. Even the tube-only guys know the major modeler options sound good adn great these days -in fact,... what doesn't sound good these days? Sure you may not prefer a product to another -but we are living in the golden age of affordable great options -from 300 dollar important guitars that cannot be distinguished in a sound test, to DAW digital home editing, to every pedal option under the sun to SS modeler amps, to IR technology etc etc

I think people are confusing preference between good and great experiences with things that need to be defended.

 

[beaubrummels]

For me, there's a couple tricks to getting a good sound out of a modeler

1. Find a way to play the actual amp(s) it's modeling so you can memorize what the actual amp sounds like and how it responds - you need this in your head to figure out what parameters to tweak in the modeler. Even better if you can borrow or rent a rig to A/B it against the modeler long enough to save some presets that match it.
2. Factory presets typically are actually a pretty good place to start BUT they tend to have settings pretty exaggerated so that 'that' sound overrides and survives all the various situations customers might first try the modeler. All you have to do is roll back the extremes of what's going on in the settings (half the mids, half the presence, half the gain, etc.), remembering what the real amp sounds like from point 1, to get it back to what the amp really sounds like. Then rock on.

I've been able to get great, near identical, sounds out of any modeler or piece of amp-emulation/simulation gear put in front of me using just these two points.

A lot of guys on here are going for the modelers these days because of:

• amps too heavy to carry around to gigs
• amps too loud to use in any real situation
• so many great sounds available for the price of one great amp
• direct connectivity; can be used for recording more easily, can be used for quiet stages and direct to P.A.

 

[El Dunco]

Is that the average experience on this forum? I haven't seen much of this at all on SDUFG unless it's somebody joining for a second trolling or fake outrage -To my experience members here have been high on the modeler products for many years and understand this -long before I posted anything too -Maybe Im missing all these threads on here. Even the tube-only guys know the major modeler options sound good adn great these days -in fact,... what doesn't sound good these days? Sure you may not prefer a product to another -but we are living in the golden age of affordable great options -from 300 dollar important guitars that cannot be distinguished in a sound test, to DAW digital home editing, to every pedal option under the sun to SS modeler amps, to IR technology etc etc

I think people are confusing preference between good and great experiences with things that need to be defended.

Not necessarily the forum. Just the whole guitar community has the cork-sniffer purist types who won’t seem to entirely vanish who at this point in the technology, likely can’t tell a mic’d tube amp from a well dialled in model with an IR, especially in a complete song (where it really counts) but have still kept the same opinion where anyone could pick out a POD direct to the board. If you’ve never encountered them, you probably will eventually.

 

[NegativeEase]

Not necessarily the forum. Just the whole guitar community has the cork-sniffer purist types who won’t seem to entirely vanish who at this point in the technology, likely can’t tell a mic’d tube amp from a well dialled in model with an IR, especially in a complete song (where it really counts) but have still kept the same opinion where anyone could pick out a POD direct to the board. If you’ve never encountered them, you probably will eventually.

Yeah, Im not out there arguing on a bunch of forums, so my comments are about this one. I totally believe the original poster sees silly criticisms and fake outrage on Gear Page etc... Just I havent much of that at all here. -If anything it's the opposite here.

And you're totally right, most guitar tone matters in a mix - and incredible tones have been made of the best records using anything under the sun -so even if an IR/Modeler/SS or whatever sounds plastic, or sheeny etc etc I guarantee it still can be used to great effect in a mix at times.

I just don't like they he decided to make up a fake quote from me to support his argument.

 

[Securb]

I don't care what any of y'all plug into. I am just hoping you are smiling while doing it.

 

[Aceman]

I have always felt the whole "modeler vs real" thing was silly. I'm in the school of "If it sounds good it sounds good."

1. I know that a lot of our favorite sounds on albums were made using gear other than what we thought. i.e. Page with a Dano and a little Fender amp or whatever.

2. I have seen people sound like crap on some awesome gear (Thank you Guitar Center etc. for demonstrating this every time I am there)

3. I have got sounds that I think were awesome out of solid state, hybrid, tube, pedals, and even software.
(I have also got crappy sounds out of all of that too!)

If you are THAT particular (and that is your right - just go get the piece of gear you want. Don't go around complaining how something is NOT that sound exactly.

I'll take a good sound wherever I find it. As I said in a thread - right now, my Roland Minicube is kicking out an awesome sound.

 

[Artie]

One of my favorite setups is to run a modeler into a tube amp/combo. My Spidervalve 112 has pre-out/main-in, and the amp section is a Bogner tube amp. Works good, sounds great.

 

[DankStar]

I think there's a pretty good acceptance here. Most of us have our preferences and bugaboos too. This leads to some good discussions and decisions about what to invest in I think.

I had some recent bad luck with a few pieces of budget modeling gear, but this weekend I was able to dive into my Harley Benton modeller and it looks like a keeper. It's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but that's alright. It got me playing for a couple of hours yesterday, so that's a win in my book! And (more importantly), I'm itching to get quality time to delve into it again, which for me is the sign of keeper gear.

 

[Mincer]

Sometimes using a modeler allows me to build a rig that has no real-world equivalent (and sounds nothing like a guitar). It is also cheaper than collecting esoteric effects pedals.

 

[El Dunco]

Sometimes using a modeler allows me to build a rig that has no real-world equivalent (and sounds nothing like a guitar

I would love to see more modelers lean into this with their capabilities instead of putting most of the resources into emulating existing gear as closely as possible. I still use my RP1000 for its external preamp and effects routing abilities, has some hi-gain models that hold up to this day and I have an industrial preset there’s no other way to make by running distortion into the acoustic simulator! Gets that Manson/NIN sound.

 

[JOLLY]

I've been using modelers since 1998 or 1999. They've always worked for me and what I do. I never cared if anyone had a negative opinion of them.

 

[NegativeEase]

Well, in a sense none of this matters very soon as it relates to modelers modeling classic amps -as people are teaching AI to perfectly match anything to the original in an anechoic chamber by using robotic servo control of mics and access to all control parameters of the product -so you will know soon enough what a products full potential is.

I honestly think it's silly though -why waste the power of digital trying to copy old things instead of finally making some new sounds.

 

[Securb]

I think the pushback by many on digital is ego. Not ego in regards to their playing but ego in regards to their gear. People spend thousands on amps, variacs, NOS Mullard tubes and every gadget under the sun to capture a sound. Then comes along a noob that posts they nailed the same tone on a POD and a solid-state practice amp by hitting a preset. The hatred and denial begins and the cork-sniffers start insulting the noob's gear and digital processing in general. Because there is no way a digital product can faithfully represent the sound of a high-end tube amp. It is as if the cork-sniffers are insulted someone compared any type of modeler to the $20,000 worth of gear sitting in their bedroom