Passing Judgement on Modelers!

[donaldr]

Here is the thing. Putting aside the fact tone is objective let's all agree the MB sounds better than the Katana. This does not mean the Katana sounds bad or has any flaws. They are both fantastic amps. It would be difficult to all agree on what measures you could use to decide if an amp is good or bad. But let's say the MB gets a grade of 95% and the Katana is graded at 89% the difference in the amps is negligible. In most applications, there will be no to little difference in the performance of the amps. I think the issue most guitarists suffer from is if a piece of gear is great, all else must be substandard or flawed, this is not the case.

What I'm saying is if you want to compare two things, compare them with the same parameters otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

And also different tools for different needs. My Roland Micro-Cube is substandard in many situations but it's a very good $100 battery operated amp to play around a campfire.

 

[Chris6542]

NegativeEase.....telling people they are confused is offensive, and you deserved the correction. Your contention is clearly that no one online thinks modelers sounds bad is false. The Helix crowd takes shots daily at Headrush products, a very true statement. Saying everyone on here thinks everything sounds awesome is just false. You crossed a line telling me I'm confused. I think we know who is confused.....

 

[Securb]

What I'm saying is if you want to compare two things, compare them with the same parameters otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

And I am agreeing with you.

 

[Ascension]

I feel compelled to defend modelers, new and old, as so many guys have hastily passed judgement without a deep dive into capabilities. If you haven't spent hours and hours and hours creating your own patches, exploring all sound tailoring options, and downloaded custom IRs, you have no business assessing a unit! First, never judge a unit on presets, which were historically just placeholders, or something to start with, as you tailor your own presets. I've always had a Digitech RP360XP for the "decent" sounds, looper, & drum machine, but had never dove into the Nexus software on laptop to create my own patches. Wow!! In creating patches from scratch, I was floored how good it can sound, and nothing like the rolled off "wet blanket" sound present in so many presets. It really sounds fine, but only if you get away from presets and start fresh. My Headrush pedalboard is a similar story, with all stock presets big and round, lacking upper end, but create presets (rigs) from scratch tailoring the amp EQ, custom EQ, effects, and cabs/IRs and it sounds so good! It took me about 4 hours on the RP360XP in the Nexus software to discover what it can do, and about 5 or 6 hours on Headrush to see the same. NOW, having spent alot of time with these units, I feel qualified to pass judgement. Also, IMHO, the back end: cab sims/IRs is half the sound. Pick the wrong cab model or IR and the whole thing will underachieve bigtime. Half your sound is the output stage, cab sim/IRs, which you can download for any modern unit. Even something as inexpensive on the used market ($100) as the RP360XP, with very respectable tones, Nexus laptop software to tweak, drum machine, and looper, it's an amazing deal! Now, to the credit of Fractal, their presets sound very nice out of the box as in the case with my AX8, a unit that can produce tones so gorgeous you just end up staring at the speakers, no joke. So, please give any modeler a fair shake by exploring it's capabilities, odds are your modeler is much more capable than you have been giving it credit for.

My beef with them is I spent more time programing the blasted things than I did playing them. Then would get them out live and the patch i created sounded like crap on that system so had to spend more time tweaking. Spent many hours and much $ on the things but got sick of it all and went back to a very simple tube amp and pedal board set up. They have their place but I just don't want to play one.

 

[Ascension]

My Spidervalve is probably the best amp that I own. Admittedly it's not a multi thousand dollar boutique head. But the software works. And it's then put through 2 12AX7's into 4 5881's.
The thing sounds massive clean or dirty. And it has enough effects to negate the need for an additional board besides the foot controler.

A buddy of mine has one of those heads and his sounds GREAT! Hope to get out with these guys at some point with my Archon rig but Kens tone with his is killin!

 

[Ascension]

Not necessarily the forum. Just the whole guitar community has the cork-sniffer purist types who won’t seem to entirely vanish who at this point in the technology, likely can’t tell a mic’d tube amp from a well dialled in model with an IR, especially in a complete song (where it really counts) but have still kept the same opinion where anyone could pick out a POD direct to the board. If you’ve never encountered them, you probably will eventually.

My beef with modelers is on several fronts. I agree with you that they can sound great in the studio and that they have their place. I have spent a LOT of time money and effort trying to use them live. I finally chose to walk away and go back to a simple tube amp rig for specific reasons.
First off I have spent hours in programing these things only to get to gig plug them into a system and have it sound like CRAP! Had to try and edit on the fly at a gig. Also the patch that sounded great at the house on my system didn't cut it live at all with the team I got pulled into play with again forced to try and edit on the fly at the gig. Then have had reliability issues due to unstable power even running a Furman. So went back to a small pedal board and several tube amps with real cabs miced or a iso cab with my rigs.
Also live they just do not respond to touch and feel like a real tube rig. My real amps are simple reliable easy to tweak on the fly and consistent. Because of these things I have now abandoned any attempt to try and use modelers live.

 

[Ascension]

I'm using modelers for the last 20 years. IMHO if you compare a fairly new modeler and a real amp recorded with a microphone, both thru studio monitors, you won't be able to distinguish one from the other (comparing apples to apples). Add other tracks to the mix and it will be impossible. Same modeler thru powered PA speakers and same real amp thru guitar cabs, in the same room, and good chance the real amp will sound better. Because it's not the same playback engine (comparing apples to oranges). That's the sound people are comparing and saying modelers are not as good.

So the comments I read/ear about real amps being better than modelers are mostly coming from people who never heard their amp thru a microphone, out of studio monitors (comparing apples to oranges). Or from people playing live and earring their amp onstage instead of what is coming from the FOH.

I'm used to earring my modeler thru FOH so when I go to live shows I can compare the miked amp against my modeler and most of the time my modeler sound as good. Only difference is when I'm closer to the stage as I'm also earring the real amp.

Comparing a $3k Mesa Boogie against a $300 Katana will also be like comparing apples to oranges...

Good post. I record most of the gigs I play and one of the reasons is so I can hear with my rig sounds like not on stage but through the FOH. This was one of the things that made me abandon running a modeler live all together. I got MUCH better tones in the FOH with my miced real amps than I did with a modeler. There is an old saying the tape doesn't like and I find that it is very true.
Example would be here. A community worship event never played at this Church or with most of these folks had no practice only a quick run through and sound check and played off basic charts. I brought my little tiny Mesa Subway rocket set it up at super low stage level ran almost no effects and threw a Beta 57 on it. Quick to set up easy to tweak and sounded great in the FOH mix with no drama. Have never been able to do this with a modeler.
https://youtu.be/S3IBwdRkJDA another similar event this time i ran my US built 50 watt PRS Archon rig on a 2/12 because I knew what the environment was. Still had my Ax Trac iso cab in the car so I could run silent stage if i needed to. Quick and easy to set up sounded great in the overall mix and there was no drama.
https://youtu.be/WZfBmzCIvfA
Far cry from my experiences with running modelers live.

 

[Blille]

My beef with modelers is on several fronts. I agree with you that they can sound great in the studio and that they have their place. I have spent a LOT of time money and effort trying to use them live. I finally chose to walk away and go back to a simple tube amp rig for specific reasons.
First off I have spent hours in programing these things only to get to gig plug them into a system and have it sound like CRAP! Had to try and edit on the fly at a gig. Also the patch that sounded great at the house on my system didn't cut it live at all with the team I got pulled into play with again forced to try and edit on the fly at the gig. Then have had reliability issues due to unstable power even running a Furman. So went back to a small pedal board and several tube amps with real cabs miced or a iso cab with my rigs.
Also live they just do not respond to touch and feel like a real tube rig. My real amps are simple reliable easy to tweak on the fly and consistent. Because of these things I have now abandoned any attempt to try and use modelers live.

As a fellow CCM Sunday player I gotta encourage you to give it another try

I was where you are a couple years back. Now I take my tiny pedalboard with a HX Stomp and a couple pedals and it works great. Way less hassle and I can still tweak on the fly. Way more reliable and less sound guy dependent than a mic + amp solution. I play regularly in a couple of Churches and most folks have a Helix Floor, Fractal or some kind of Stomp + pedals solution. In one they have a room to mic up the amps and they have a few to choose from including AC30, Two Rock etc and they are just collecting dust.

Things have improved significantly in the last couple of years. You can also buy patches for the specific songs you play to make it easier.

 

[Gtrjunior]

I have played Amos that sound great….and ones that sound awful.

I have also played modelers that were equally great…and ones that were awful as well.


Personally, I’m a Kemper guy. For me it sounds the closest to the real thing that I e ever tried. I like the ease of tweakability it has verses some of the other modelers as well.

That said, not every profile sounds amazing. And others will blow your mind.

 

[JOLLY]

I have played Amps that sound great….and ones that sound awful.

I have also played modelers that were equally great…and ones that were awful as well.


Personally, I’m a Kemper guy. For me it sounds the closest to the real thing that I e ever tried. I like the ease of tweakability it has verses some of the other modelers as well.

That said, not every profile sounds amazing. And others will blow your mind.

I'm with you 100% on all of this.

 

[maug2122]

Well, in a sense none of this matters very soon as it relates to modelers modeling classic amps -as people are teaching AI to perfectly match anything to the original in an anechoic chamber by using robotic servo control of mics and access to all control parameters of the product -so you will know soon enough what a products full potential is.

I honestly think it's silly though -why waste the power of digital trying to copy old things instead of finally making some new sounds.

I recreated some great tube based overdrives/ distortions with my Digitech 2112 SGS's 12ax7 tubes to recreate my VHT Pitbull, Deliverance, Carvin X-100 B, Legacy 1,2,3 , V3, Marshall JCM 800, Mesa Boggie Mark 5, Fender Princeton, Twin Reverb, Peavey JSX, Triple X and Soldano SLO 100.
With the 2112's Analog overdrives/ distortions , I recreated the Randall War Head, RG 80 100, Carvin SX 300, Roland 120 Jazz Chourus amp or a 1980's Rockman .

After that I made copies of those patches and made them different .
The Digitech 2112 SGS is only a clone of the Johnson Millenium Amps from the 1990's.

 

[ehdwuld]

My Digitech GNX3000 will let me fade from a distorted metal preset to an acoustic simulation with the rocker footswitch

Real world cant do that

 

[El Dunco]

My Digitech GNX2000 will let me fade from a distorted metal preset to an acoustic simulation with the rocker footswitch

Real world cant do that

The ol’ patch morphing. Would be a cool feature to bring back.

 

[ehdwuld]

It is an older unit
hyper patch or some such

 

[Demanic]

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Vintage 2010. Line 6 and Bogner. Oh and Carvin for the cab. 4 12M-70's.
The thing sounds fantastic clean or dirty. Way more presets than I could use in a lifetime.
Line 6 models going through a Bogner designed power section. 1 12AX7 preamp tube into 4 5881's.

 

[maug2122]

What blows me away is how clever, modern marketing has become .
They push guitarists , bassists and other musicians to buy the latest trendy gear .

I am more than sure, someone 15 to 30 years from now, will be thoroughly enjoying today's Kempers and other modelers of today .... and still sound amazing .

 

[ehdwuld]

What blows me away is how clever, modern marketing has become .
They push guitarists , bassists and other musicians to buy the latest trendy gear .

I am more than sure, someone 15 to 30 years from now, will be thoroughly enjoying today's Kempers and other modelers of today .... and still sound amazing .

There are people that can make a Gorilla amp sound great

I ain't one

 

[NegativeEase]

There are people that can make a Gorilla amp sound great

I ain't one

Yeah agree, you ain't one... lol... I kid Ed.... I meant yeah, I agree, I have a friend who can make any amp sound incredible -makes me crazy -he can make a beltpack amp with a 3 inch speaker or a ToysRUs kids first amp sound like a Princeton