Inflames626
New member
Exactly my criticism with him. He's sort of a Pacific Northwest 90s hipster masquerading as a 2020s Dad rock metal dude.
Passive bass pickups with active EQ--underrated setup?
- Thread starter Inflames626
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Exactly my criticism with him. He's sort of a Pacific Northwest 90s hipster masquerading as a 2020s Dad rock metal dude.
Inflames626
New member
Something else I'm considering doing next time I mix is instead of doing the boost, sweep, and cut method, narrowing the Q as little as possible to find the fundamental frequency of each instrument and then gradually expanding from there until the instruments overlap and gel.
Wide frequency response is fine when something plays by itself but if a lot of it just gets shelved in a mix it's a waste IMO.
It would also help if I knew how to route Voxengo Span a little better so I could see all instruments in different colors on screen at once. But usually there is so much overlap in a full mix that mixing with one's eyes is kind of useless.
Wide frequency response is fine when something plays by itself but if a lot of it just gets shelved in a mix it's a waste IMO.
It would also help if I knew how to route Voxengo Span a little better so I could see all instruments in different colors on screen at once. But usually there is so much overlap in a full mix that mixing with one's eyes is kind of useless.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Different approaches to mixing. I like my mixes very guitar-centric, but I also like big roomy drums (although with a dry typewriter kick). I'm guilty of liking very mainstream 2000's Metal production, TBH. Guitly pleasure of mine.
What's your favorite mix, curious? What do you like to reference? For me, it's As I Lay Dying - Shadows Are Security. Very Gothenburg-y vibe to the mix (and music), just a little more polished and 2000's. I do prefer what Colin Richardson does with drums, though. So for me, An Ocean Between Us is right up there. I also liked what Jens Bogren did on At War with Reality. And Deceiver of the Gods.
Inflames626
New member
At this point anything post 2000 or so sounds really clinical and same-ish. I'd have to get back to you on it.
The 90s IF records were a big influence but at the time they very much reminded me of AJFA. Lots of preamp distortion, scooped (I didn't know they were in C as a teenager--I just thought they had more low end dialed in). Bjorn's drums were paper thin. Johann Larson's bass was, for IF, very mid forward. I used to not like it but now whenever I hear "Whoracle" I like the bass counter melody to the acoustics. It's a bass sound I wish they'd get back to.
When I was coming up during the nu metal period everything was very bass forward. Tony Campos of Static X comes to mind. At the same time the bass was mid scooped. The kicks aren't super busy in nu metal, or the bass is in sync a lot with the kick, so they can do that. Everybody wanted to be Fieldy, but I though Chi Cheng of Deftones had a better bass tone.
I was more influenced by late 80s/early 90s stuff, and Gothenburg to my ear was just taking that and turning it up by making the drums faster and the guitars thicker.
Generally I find my mixes well-balanced but thin. They lack a lot of depth. This is probably from my dislike of using any more compression than is necessary, since most compressors are used badly. I tend to master with presets and then tweak a bit to taste. Less than ideal listening environment so I do whatever I like that sounds good at home and how it turns out in the car or on other systems is just how it turns out. You can't make it perfect on every system.
It seems like most bands now want loudness, fullness, thickness, and lots of dynamic range. I get that. But I also want clarity because I can remember hearing a lot of albums in the 90s where I was frustrated that I couldn't hear the parts against each other to learn them.
A lot of 80s Queensryche inspires me, especially the articulation of the bass (Neil Kernon did "Rage for Order" and later worked with Cannibal Corpse, a band that sounds completely unlike Queensryche). Kernon and Peter Collins, who did "Operation Mindcrime," are both English, as was Martin Birch, producer of most of the classic Iron Maiden records up until 1995.
A lot of the Testament and Death records inspired me as well, although with Death I don't like fretless bass for metal because it peeks in and out of the mix even though the fills sound glorious.
By about 2005 I was 25 and largely over being influenced. Everything started sounding the same. My buddy Justin (I posted a link to his band Poisonwood on another thread) is really inspired by Mors Principium Est, although I don't listen to them much.
I like the Therion records also--especially their lyrical themes about academic topics and obscure esoterica.
I liked Sylvia Massey's work on Tool's "Undertow" album, although I consider her very much an early 90s grunge/alternative type of producer.
Of course, Fleming Rasmussen and Michael Wagner's work on "Master of Puppets" is classic.
Back then it sounds like they really had to tweak and work at getting good sounds. Now everything sounds kind of canned. "High gain death metal tone. Just add water." (Metalocalypse reference.)
I mean, Job for a Cowboy, Daath, Converge, Knocked Loose, most of the stuff played on SiriusFM's "Liquid Metal" just sounds the same.
The 90s IF records were a big influence but at the time they very much reminded me of AJFA. Lots of preamp distortion, scooped (I didn't know they were in C as a teenager--I just thought they had more low end dialed in). Bjorn's drums were paper thin. Johann Larson's bass was, for IF, very mid forward. I used to not like it but now whenever I hear "Whoracle" I like the bass counter melody to the acoustics. It's a bass sound I wish they'd get back to.
When I was coming up during the nu metal period everything was very bass forward. Tony Campos of Static X comes to mind. At the same time the bass was mid scooped. The kicks aren't super busy in nu metal, or the bass is in sync a lot with the kick, so they can do that. Everybody wanted to be Fieldy, but I though Chi Cheng of Deftones had a better bass tone.
I was more influenced by late 80s/early 90s stuff, and Gothenburg to my ear was just taking that and turning it up by making the drums faster and the guitars thicker.
Generally I find my mixes well-balanced but thin. They lack a lot of depth. This is probably from my dislike of using any more compression than is necessary, since most compressors are used badly. I tend to master with presets and then tweak a bit to taste. Less than ideal listening environment so I do whatever I like that sounds good at home and how it turns out in the car or on other systems is just how it turns out. You can't make it perfect on every system.
It seems like most bands now want loudness, fullness, thickness, and lots of dynamic range. I get that. But I also want clarity because I can remember hearing a lot of albums in the 90s where I was frustrated that I couldn't hear the parts against each other to learn them.
A lot of 80s Queensryche inspires me, especially the articulation of the bass (Neil Kernon did "Rage for Order" and later worked with Cannibal Corpse, a band that sounds completely unlike Queensryche). Kernon and Peter Collins, who did "Operation Mindcrime," are both English, as was Martin Birch, producer of most of the classic Iron Maiden records up until 1995.
A lot of the Testament and Death records inspired me as well, although with Death I don't like fretless bass for metal because it peeks in and out of the mix even though the fills sound glorious.
By about 2005 I was 25 and largely over being influenced. Everything started sounding the same. My buddy Justin (I posted a link to his band Poisonwood on another thread) is really inspired by Mors Principium Est, although I don't listen to them much.
I like the Therion records also--especially their lyrical themes about academic topics and obscure esoterica.
I liked Sylvia Massey's work on Tool's "Undertow" album, although I consider her very much an early 90s grunge/alternative type of producer.
Of course, Fleming Rasmussen and Michael Wagner's work on "Master of Puppets" is classic.
Back then it sounds like they really had to tweak and work at getting good sounds. Now everything sounds kind of canned. "High gain death metal tone. Just add water." (Metalocalypse reference.)
I mean, Job for a Cowboy, Daath, Converge, Knocked Loose, most of the stuff played on SiriusFM's "Liquid Metal" just sounds the same.
Inflames626
New member
Some of my friends dig Fleshgod Apocalypse too.
To be honest, despite their appeal to hot topic scene kids, I like some of the newer Cradle of Filth records that have a bit of an Iron Maiden flavor to them. Very clicky drums. But I like the melodies. Danny Filth's voice is...interesting and unique. Not always pleasant. But I appreciate the work he puts into his vocal layering to make it almost like a sound designed vocal. Of course, a bit part of his influence is 1980s British horror like "Hellraiser," when they'd do a lot of sound effects like that for monsters and whatnot.
To be honest, despite their appeal to hot topic scene kids, I like some of the newer Cradle of Filth records that have a bit of an Iron Maiden flavor to them. Very clicky drums. But I like the melodies. Danny Filth's voice is...interesting and unique. Not always pleasant. But I appreciate the work he puts into his vocal layering to make it almost like a sound designed vocal. Of course, a bit part of his influence is 1980s British horror like "Hellraiser," when they'd do a lot of sound effects like that for monsters and whatnot.
Inflames626
New member
I like a pretty raw drum sound at times, and tom work especially from black metal.
Deathspell Omega comes to mind, as does Wolves in the Throne Room. I also really liked classic era Bathory like "Blood, Fire, Death."
Deathspell Omega comes to mind, as does Wolves in the Throne Room. I also really liked classic era Bathory like "Blood, Fire, Death."
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Yeah, we're worlds apart when it comes to taste in mixes, then, LOL.
I'm not usually a big fan of the tones on old Metal records. Or old records in general. For me, technology has advanced, and nowadays, we have "better" (and more attainable) tools to make "better" mixes. Of course, "better" is subjective, as music is art, and sometimes, "perfect" is not what you want. I think it was that Kohle dude you mentioned in another thread who said that.
I most certainly don't like raw drums. At least not in Metal. I hate hearing reverb on the kick on MOP or those cardboardy toms on AJFA. Killer records at the time, no doubt, I just don't think the production has held up as well as the Black Album has. Even then, I'm not a big fan of some of the aesthetic choices taken on that mix. Phase-y guitars that are kinda low in the mix, super loud drums and vocals that stick on top of everything else, and other stuff. Still, that is an iconic production that's sadly's Metallica's first arguably non-Metal record, LOL.
I HATE HATE HATE HATE the tone on Mastodon's Leviathan (which was IMO Mastodon's last heavy album). Good music, but the mixes come off as so Hipster-y pedantic just trying to be different for the sake of being different. Ugly-sounding guitars and cardboard-y sounding drums. I'm sure that record was not low-budget, but it sounds like someone recorded it in his garage to me.
I do like Terry Date, Colin Richardson, and Nordtrom for what they were doing in the 90's, though. Carcass Heartwork is another record I reference all the time. Those guitars are (to me) what Metal guitars should sound like. Or at least, downtuned Metal guitars.
JMO, of course. Like we discussed, I'm not really into Thrash, personally. Not that I don't like, just that I didn't really get into it when I was younger, and nowadays, it's kinda like a genre that stopped evolving. I guess you could say the same about Swedish Melodeath, but at least, that has got the nostalgia factor for me.
I'm not usually a big fan of the tones on old Metal records. Or old records in general. For me, technology has advanced, and nowadays, we have "better" (and more attainable) tools to make "better" mixes. Of course, "better" is subjective, as music is art, and sometimes, "perfect" is not what you want. I think it was that Kohle dude you mentioned in another thread who said that.
I most certainly don't like raw drums. At least not in Metal. I hate hearing reverb on the kick on MOP or those cardboardy toms on AJFA. Killer records at the time, no doubt, I just don't think the production has held up as well as the Black Album has. Even then, I'm not a big fan of some of the aesthetic choices taken on that mix. Phase-y guitars that are kinda low in the mix, super loud drums and vocals that stick on top of everything else, and other stuff. Still, that is an iconic production that's sadly's Metallica's first arguably non-Metal record, LOL.
I HATE HATE HATE HATE the tone on Mastodon's Leviathan (which was IMO Mastodon's last heavy album). Good music, but the mixes come off as so Hipster-y pedantic just trying to be different for the sake of being different. Ugly-sounding guitars and cardboard-y sounding drums. I'm sure that record was not low-budget, but it sounds like someone recorded it in his garage to me.
I do like Terry Date, Colin Richardson, and Nordtrom for what they were doing in the 90's, though. Carcass Heartwork is another record I reference all the time. Those guitars are (to me) what Metal guitars should sound like. Or at least, downtuned Metal guitars.
JMO, of course. Like we discussed, I'm not really into Thrash, personally. Not that I don't like, just that I didn't really get into it when I was younger, and nowadays, it's kinda like a genre that stopped evolving. I guess you could say the same about Swedish Melodeath, but at least, that has got the nostalgia factor for me.
Inflames626
New member
To me thrash and death metal are joined at the hip. The latter is just a more extreme form of the former. The issue is a lot of death metal started taking on a lot of groove metal elements, mainly from Sepultura and Pantera, and that led to some lazy guitar playing relative to thrash.
I liked Heartwork. Didn't care much for the fuzzy guitars but Carcass (having a lot of overlay with Napalm Death) was grindcore so I suppose that sound was required.
To me where death metal and thrash intersect is probably Napalm Death's 1997 "Inside the Torn Apart." Pretty sure they're just in D standard using Marshalls but the tone is savage.
Would the guitars sound thin now? Yeah, but to me they're articulate. The drums sound more real whereas drums now sound just--sampled. They're mostly triggered tones and not the real drum. Sadly, very little bass on the Napalm Death record, and bassist Shane Embury is one of the main members.
The brutality came from Barney Greenway's voice, but that's just a thick Birmingham accent for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeKPsDISDbM&list=PLyNkh-wQ2KB2ZqZURyZ3FesPWYoNWt5ey&index=8
Contrast with "Plague Rages" for a dirtier death metal sound.
Woofy like a Les Paul neck pickup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCsZAaXlU4
I find unprocessed drums (basically drums that just sound like they're recorded in a shitty room with overheads) require a lot more work to sound good. Like, you're trying to deliberately make it sound bad, but in a good way. It's great fun vs. a very processed and wet drum sound.
I never found any problems with AJFA's production. MOP was so slick and polished, especially that dreamlike melodic interlude section. Justice was the anger, and the raw production made it angrier.
I liked Heartwork. Didn't care much for the fuzzy guitars but Carcass (having a lot of overlay with Napalm Death) was grindcore so I suppose that sound was required.
To me where death metal and thrash intersect is probably Napalm Death's 1997 "Inside the Torn Apart." Pretty sure they're just in D standard using Marshalls but the tone is savage.
Would the guitars sound thin now? Yeah, but to me they're articulate. The drums sound more real whereas drums now sound just--sampled. They're mostly triggered tones and not the real drum. Sadly, very little bass on the Napalm Death record, and bassist Shane Embury is one of the main members.
The brutality came from Barney Greenway's voice, but that's just a thick Birmingham accent for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeKPsDISDbM&list=PLyNkh-wQ2KB2ZqZURyZ3FesPWYoNWt5ey&index=8
Contrast with "Plague Rages" for a dirtier death metal sound.
Woofy like a Les Paul neck pickup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCsZAaXlU4
I find unprocessed drums (basically drums that just sound like they're recorded in a shitty room with overheads) require a lot more work to sound good. Like, you're trying to deliberately make it sound bad, but in a good way. It's great fun vs. a very processed and wet drum sound.
I never found any problems with AJFA's production. MOP was so slick and polished, especially that dreamlike melodic interlude section. Justice was the anger, and the raw production made it angrier.
Inflames626
New member
Deathspell Omega, "Kenose," 2005. I mean those toms just literally slap. You can hear the heads reverberate. Great drum sound IMO.
https://youtu.be/VcHWSDTlmRA
https://youtu.be/VcHWSDTlmRA
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
I don't mind And Justice. Many people think it's a bad record because of the boomy guitars and lack of bass, but I actually kinda like guitars like that, LOL. Maybe not to that extreme, but that record was made in the 80's. It's also borderline an example of why the guitarist should not have as much input in the mix as the person mixing himself, LOL. Then again, who am I to argue with James Hetfield, especially before he was a millionaire gray old fart? I LOVE LOVE LOVE the clicky drum on that record too and the almost Super Drummer-y snare tone, LOL. It's just the toms that stick out to me on that mix like a sore thumb.
Master... yes, it sounds super clean (for the time), but at the same time, to me, it sounds very dated. Everything in the drums is drenched in reverb, including the kick. I hate that. Reverb on the kick, bass, or rhythm guitars is a cardinal sin to me.
Each to his own. The whole Modded Marshall or IIC+ tones were a bit from before my time. I'm all about 5150 or Recto. Or Krank or ENGL Savage.
Master... yes, it sounds super clean (for the time), but at the same time, to me, it sounds very dated. Everything in the drums is drenched in reverb, including the kick. I hate that. Reverb on the kick, bass, or rhythm guitars is a cardinal sin to me.
Each to his own. The whole Modded Marshall or IIC+ tones were a bit from before my time. I'm all about 5150 or Recto. Or Krank or ENGL Savage.
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Inflames626
New member
I also dig this for a drum sound at 4:31. The kicks literally just thump. Absolutely no click. It gives it more muscle. That said, it's also meant to sound lo fi and ambient, WITTR being a hipster black metal band from the Pacific Northwest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLOwALyzKg4
Agalloch has some good tones. Kind of Helmet-ish "St. Anger" kind of snare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDH-YCCeL3c
Paradise Lost in drop A. With Adrian Erlandsson from At the Gates on drums. Kind of velvety guitar sound. Love Nick Holmes's voice. Very versatile. He's got the death metal, clean singing, and Hetfield in between all down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CetPWvP0sIw&list=PLWeEAT408ZRKwMtlX1qsDMkv07xWybqA_&index=6
My Dying Bride. Interesting snare and drum parts on this and more kind of soft, textured guitars. The kicks coming in spurts and the snare just keeping quarters is not something you usually hear.
https://youtu.be/UMwtlz8JebM
And lastly Woods of Ypres, but not the one Glen Fricker rags on about the timing. This is probably the intersection of prog and doom metal for me. I would have thought Devin Townsend had produced it it sounds so slick.
https://youtu.be/RccRMksfU8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLOwALyzKg4
Agalloch has some good tones. Kind of Helmet-ish "St. Anger" kind of snare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDH-YCCeL3c
Paradise Lost in drop A. With Adrian Erlandsson from At the Gates on drums. Kind of velvety guitar sound. Love Nick Holmes's voice. Very versatile. He's got the death metal, clean singing, and Hetfield in between all down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CetPWvP0sIw&list=PLWeEAT408ZRKwMtlX1qsDMkv07xWybqA_&index=6
My Dying Bride. Interesting snare and drum parts on this and more kind of soft, textured guitars. The kicks coming in spurts and the snare just keeping quarters is not something you usually hear.
https://youtu.be/UMwtlz8JebM
And lastly Woods of Ypres, but not the one Glen Fricker rags on about the timing. This is probably the intersection of prog and doom metal for me. I would have thought Devin Townsend had produced it it sounds so slick.
https://youtu.be/RccRMksfU8c
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Following the conversation so far, you guys will really get a kick out of this 
https://toiletovhell.com/your-favorite-death-metal-album-was-triggered/
https://toiletovhell.com/your-favorite-death-metal-album-was-triggered/
Following the conversation so far, you guys will really get a kick out of this
https://toiletovhell.com/your-favorite-death-metal-album-was-triggered/
An article from the good old days... remember that one dude who emailed every band asking if they used any triggers or sample replacement or quantization in their drum recording so he could call them out for being "fake"? Funny. I remember reading that the kicks (and possibly snares) on a bunch of early 90s Nordic DM albums were recorded with trigger pads.
Inflames626, love DSO's sound and music, great call. Drought is my favorite mix of theirs.
Inflames626
New member
A lot of my friends in other bands use drum sound replacement software--Drumagog I think?
Good sounding rooms are expensive and often not possible within a recording budget.
Queensryche recorded "Rage for Order" in 1985-6 in a warehouse just for the purpose of the drum sound.
And then of course there's that story about John Bonham recording his drums for Zep in a castle or something.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Yeah, Drums are one of the most expensive instruments to record. Hence why only higher budget productions seem to go for the room-y sound.
I ike samples blended in with the actual mic'd drum tones, personally.
Personally, hearing fast double kick lines withoug clicky kicks is almost like hearing fast palm-muted gallops without distortion. It's almost oxymoronical.
Those Paradise Lost drum tones you posted I'm 100% sure has some sample replacement/blending/enhacement in there.
I'm going to set The Black Album as an example. It's an album most people agree is a good-sounding heavy-ish record. There was sample replacement/enhacement involved as early as that.
They've done that in like 99% of Metal albums for a while unless they specifically go for an in-the-room vibe, which is rare, and IMO, it almost always backfires. Slaughter of the Soul's kick sample is stolen from Far Beyond Driven.
I ike samples blended in with the actual mic'd drum tones, personally.
Personally, hearing fast double kick lines withoug clicky kicks is almost like hearing fast palm-muted gallops without distortion. It's almost oxymoronical.
Those Paradise Lost drum tones you posted I'm 100% sure has some sample replacement/blending/enhacement in there.
I'm going to set The Black Album as an example. It's an album most people agree is a good-sounding heavy-ish record. There was sample replacement/enhacement involved as early as that.
They've done that in like 99% of Metal albums for a while unless they specifically go for an in-the-room vibe, which is rare, and IMO, it almost always backfires. Slaughter of the Soul's kick sample is stolen from Far Beyond Driven.
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NoOnesFang13
New member
I have a LTD Rocco Prestia signature, with passive Aguilar P/J pickups and a 2 band Aguilar EQ and its awesome. I like the vintage sounding tones with a bit more tone shaping.
Inflames626
New member
The clicks were originally put in so you could hear the double bass instead of feel it. Tones started trying to imitate Vinnie Paul sounding sets. Far Beyond Driven mentality.
The thing is that kind of drum sound is really thin.
I get the thinness. It's to emphasize drums, often at the expense of bass. I don't exactly hear a lot of Lars's double bass on a lot of 80s Metallica records because the kicks don't click. But removing thump from kick robs the music of power.
You end up with the modern Superior Drummer metal sound and it's...as boring as a gated snare got to be by the end of the 80s.
The power of the chug is the kick, bass, and guitar blended.
Cradle of Filth is probably a great example of the stereotypical modern metal tone. Adrian Erlandsson on this too (his brother Daniel has the same tone in Arch Enemy). Nick Barker in Dimmu Borgir had kind of the same sound.
I appreciate how precise it is and the technical aspect of it. But man does it start sounding Scott Travis drum machine-y after a few dozen albums.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw1fnXtpJzk
Inflames626
New member
I do like CoF's guitar tone on this album, though. I'm guessing it's Marshalls, D standard. Thick but not boxy, not fizzy.
Inflames626
New member
Also, out of all musical forms besides industrial/synthwave/electronica/sound design, metal is probably going to be the most altered and least natural sounding genre. The way the instruments are supposed to sound are not how instruments sound in nature.
