Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

[mantis]

Ok a lot od stuff in that opening Title but I'm working on a new pedal board and want to do as little harm to the original signal as possible.
I'm currently running True Bypass and Buffered pedals in a certain order which I will list. I'm considering going with mostly all True bypass and then using a Buffer close to the front. So here is whats going on and tell me how you would improve on the signal flow if any.

GUITAR>>>BOSS NS2 INPUT, SEND OUT>>>TC ELECTRONICS MOJOMOJO>>>TC ELCTRONICS DARK MATTER>>>TC ELECTRONICS SPARK>>>BOSS NS2 RETURN, OUTPUT>>> FRONT OF AMP.

Ok so that is the front end of the amp. I assume the Boss NS2 is a buffer as it's not listed as either, I assume all Boss or most Boss pedals as Buffered? True or not?
Guitar cable is a 10ft Planet Waves and all connecting patch cables are built by me using the Planet Waves Pedal Kit. High quality and very nice.

Now for the effects loop

AMP SEND>>>ERNIE BALL JR VOLUME PEDAL>>> TC ELECTRONICS SPECIAL EDITION CORONA CHORUS+>>>>BOSS DD-7 DIGITAL DELAY>>>TC ELECTRONICS HALL OF FAME REVERB>>>>BBE SONIC MAXIMIZER>>>AMPS RETURN.

So again I assume the Boss DD-7 is a buffer which isn't at the end of the signal chain so I switched the Hall of fame from True Bypass to Buffered bypass. I'm not sure if thats overkill as now technically I have 3 Buffers in the signal chain. I want to control that by replacing the Boss Pedals with TC Electronics Sentry Noise gate and a Flashback Delay which both are true bypass. Then I could use the Bonafide Buffer out front and leave the Hall of fame reverb in Buffer bypass which should be correct.

Again Planet Waves hand Built Patch cables. Send and return cables are not Planet waves but I plan on replacing them with custom built ones as Planet waves sells kits for longer cable. I'm currently using Live wires from Guitar center which seem to be fine but if I can improve on signal quality by using Planet Waves instead I'm totally willing to replace them.

Anyone have any thought comments or suggestions on this?

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Do you like the sound?

 

[devastone]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Yes, Boss pedals are buffered, the NS-2 has one. The ones in the effects loop don't matter as much whether they are buffered or not, I think the TC HoF has to be in buffered mode if you want "tails" when you turn it off.

It comes down to what gibson175 asked, if you like the sound, it's good, play and don't worry about this stuff so much.

What volume pedal are you using? It should probably be the 25K model in the loop, the 250K model if it is in front of the amp. A 25K in front of the amp will cause some serious tone suckage without a buffer in front of it.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Anyways...no matter what you do, it will change your sound in some way.
Find the one that bugs you the least soundwise.
But it is always without any exceptions a compromise.

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Do you like the sound?

Absolutely, I think I got it right.

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Yes, Boss pedals are buffered, the NS-2 has one. The ones in the effects loop don't matter as much whether they are buffered or not, I think the TC HoF has to be in buffered mode if you want "tails" when you turn it off.

It comes down to what gibson175 asked, if you like the sound, it's good, play and don't worry about this stuff so much.

What volume pedal are you using? It should probably be the 25K model in the loop, the 250K model if it is in front of the amp. A 25K in front of the amp will cause some serious tone suckage without a buffer in front of it.

I have a Ernie Ball VP JR which is a 250k Volume pedal. It also has a Tuner output but it doesn't seem to work that good. I had my tuner(Tc electronics) Connected to the Volume pedal but it took forever to sense the signal so I could tune up. I wanted the tuner out of my signal chain as that would be one less pedal and patch cable it would have to travel through. But I hated the way it worked there so now it's first in the chain and acts like a mute pedal as well. I'm not very happy with it there but I didn't notice any sound quality loss.

Do you think the Boss NS-2 built in Buffer is as good as lets say a Tc Electronics Sentry Noise Gate Buffer circuit? I was thinking of getting the Bonified Buffer from Tc Electronics as that a dedicated pedal and should be of better quality then both the Boss and TC Noise gate Buffers.
Thoughts?

 

[Hank-]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Do you think the Boss NS-2 built in Buffer is as good as lets say a Tc Electronics Sentry Noise Gate Buffer circuit? I was thinking of getting the Bonified Buffer from Tc Electronics as that a dedicated pedal and should be of better quality then both the Boss and TC Noise gate Buffers.
Thoughts?

It might be but I wouldn't be surprised if it sounds the same as the one they have in rest of the toneprint stuff, could be marketing ploy thing like other corps. Have you noticed any negative effects using the buffer of the HoF reverb in comparison to the NS2? If not, then it should work the same. The sentry gate does have some cool stuff in the editor app though.

 

[devastone]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Remember when guys just plugged in what they liked and made music and didn't worry about all this stuff? They made great albums. I think everyone worries about details too much now days, d**n interwebz making everyone nervous.

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

It might be but I wouldn't be surprised if it sounds the same as the one they have in rest of the toneprint stuff, could be marketing ploy thing like other corps. Have you noticed any negative effects using the buffer of the HoF reverb in comparison to the NS2? If not, then it should work the same. The sentry gate does have some cool stuff in the editor app though.

I can't turn off the NS-2 Buffer, I would have to remove it from the signal chain. The HOF buffer didn't seem to change anything but it lives in my effects loop and I'm wondering if Buffering even needs to take place there.
I have 2 10ft cables one from the Send to my Pedals and the other for the Return from my pedals that live in the effects loop.I'd say total signal chain there is 24 feet tops.
Out in front Probably slighty more, 10ft guitar cable to the first pedal, the pedals and patch cords and then another 10 ft cable to the front. But Out front is the NS-2 which I use the loop. That requires an additional cable to run from the end of the out front effects back to the NS-2 in return. Send goes to the first OD pedal and Return from the last one in the chain.

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Remember when guys just plugged in what they liked and made music and didn't worry about all this stuff? They made great albums. I think everyone worries about details too much now days, d**n interwebz making everyone nervous.

For me it's perfection. I work hard on my tone and want it to sound how I want it to sound. Some guitars players I know do exactly what you just said and their tone isn't that great. Actually some of them suck but are great players. I would love to tweak their rigs and get a better sound out of them for them but I'm not interested in telling people what to do or how to sound. If they ask I would gladly help.

I'm a long time Audiophile, I come from generations of Musicians and we all love both playing and listening to perfection.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

I can't turn off the NS-2 Buffer, I would have to remove it from the signal chain. The HOF buffer didn't seem to change anything but it lives in my effects loop and I'm wondering if Buffering even needs to take place there.
I have 2 10ft cables one from the Send to my Pedals and the other for the Return from my pedals that live in the effects loop.I'd say total signal chain there is 24 feet tops.
Out in front Probably slighty more, 10ft guitar cable to the first pedal, the pedals and patch cords and then another 10 ft cable to the front. But Out front is the NS-2 which I use the loop. That requires an additional cable to run from the end of the out front effects back to the NS-2 in return. Send goes to the first OD pedal and Return from the last one in the chain.

Well it's easy to test it out with the HoF & NS2, unless you tried to nut bolt them all to the board like i had done once lol

. Remove them out from the board & place them in line with each other with the HoF set to true bypass and back side up with the cover off, ignore the NS2 loop function for the time. Then remove the ns2 and change the hof to buffered mode. If the tc buffer is less neutral sounding then get the sentry. Sometimes when using 15ft+ long cables back & forth, the brightness of boss buffer comes in handy. But I would test this out before buying another pedal since the bypassed signal is of concern at the moment.

Some amps utilize op amps in their fx pathway & might not need additional buffer help, just go with what sounds more normal/natural here, if a buffered pedal isn't interfering then leave it there.

Reduce the cable length whenever possible, like at home if ya sitting down with the board near your feet then 5ft cable is plenty for guitar to board. In planet waves range get their stage series whenever possible, the classic series is fragile in comparison & not quite low cap as they advrtise.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

For me it's perfection. I work hard on my tone and want it to sound how I want it to sound. Some guitars players I know do exactly what you just said and their tone isn't that great. Actually some of them suck but are great players. I would love to tweak their rigs and get a better sound out of them for them but I'm not interested in telling people what to do or how to sound. If they ask I would gladly help.

I'm a long time Audiophile, I come from generations of Musicians and we all love both playing and listening to perfection.

It's odd though isn't it that most of the tones we try to emulate were just people plugging in and playing?

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

For me it's perfection

......good luck with that!

It's odd though isn't it that most of the tones we try to emulate were just people plugging in and playing?

Yeah....
I always gets amused when people say audiophile and plays guitar...all midrange and lo-fi.....where the less polished sound is what works...not ocd infected madmen with an army of buffers and true bypasses!

And people sound the way they do, because that is who they are!
It is an expression...not a call for uniformity and endless thoughts about...tone....

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

It's odd though isn't it that most of the tones we try to emulate were just people plugging in and playing?

Actually, I really don't try to emulate anyones tone per say. I like a lot of peoples tones but don't want to copy them as I hear things I would change.

 

[mantis]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

Well it's easy to test it out with the HoF & NS2, unless you tried to nut bolt them all to the board like i had done once lol

. Remove them out from the board & place them in line with each other with the HoF set to true bypass and back side up with the cover off, ignore the NS2 loop function for the time. Then remove the ns2 and change the hof to buffered mode. If the tc buffer is less neutral sounding then get the sentry. Sometimes when using 15ft+ long cables back & forth, the brightness of boss buffer comes in handy. But I would test this out before buying another pedal since the bypassed signal is of concern at the moment.

Some amps utilize op amps in their fx pathway & might not need additional buffer help, just go with what sounds more normal/natural here, if a buffered pedal isn't interfering then leave it there.

Reduce the cable length whenever possible, like at home if ya sitting down with the board near your feet then 5ft cable is plenty for guitar to board. In planet waves range get their stage series whenever possible, the classic series is fragile in comparison & not quite low cap as they advrtise.

Thanks, I'm gonna test that exactly that way. The Sentry Noise gate has the ability to gate certain frequencies instead of just full band width. This is intriguing as technically speaking you can just correct them as needed. I feel thats a game changer.

 

[always SD]

Re: Pedal order, Buffers, True Bypass and Buffered Pedals.

buffer in the beginning