Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

everdrone

everdrone

New member
Do you believe in Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/mixing-cabinets-phase-response-607556/

why would they make cabs like this, if the phasing cancels out bass sounds in places in a room?

the Mesa Powerhouse 1000 perplexes me:

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makes me wonder if people are doing engineering by looks?? just my humble ramblingz...

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I mean, most people are not mixing different sized speakers together in a rig!! most cabinet configurations are 112, 210, 212, 410, 810

but maybe there is good reason for the Albatross configurations ... any comments at all are appreciated,
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

Interesting. I have noticed this problem and have often wondered what was going on.
I prefer 15's for bass and I try not to mix 10's in with them.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

saladin said:
Interesting. I have noticed this problem and have often wondered what was going on.
I prefer 15's for bass and I try not to mix 10's in with them.
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I have not mixed different speaker sizes together in my own rig ever, I was thinking about mixing my 12"s with my 10"s at one point, but now I have twin 410s and a 212-combo, so no need for me.

I notice that acoustics in some venues are absolutely horrible, definitely apples to oranges but I mean there is something to cancellation and phasing and stuff, I notice that when mixing songs too but that is just me listening, and not a scientific conclusion ;)
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

When I used to run a Marshall DBS rig, I had to stack the 7115 on top of the 7410 because the other way around was unsafe.

tc electronic suggests that its RS210 and RS212 cabinets be stacked vertically and with the slightly deeper 212 protruding further forward than the 210.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

Our bass player has an 18" and a 4x10 and it sounds great but I wish both cabs were on the ground.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

balance is also definitely a consideration. I am sure phasing is an issue for larger rooms and not so much for practices/jam sessions or for when the soundguy mics just one speaker.

some stages I have played on are wooden and not that stable, and I would never stack any speakers up on them.

other stages had dancers moshpit-people that do not understand that a stack is something that can fall!
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

I'm not gonna believe that Mesa put the speakers out of phase on purpose.

That big drawing is nonsense because what is in and out of phase depends on the frequency of individual harmonics.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

everdrone said:
I mean, most people are not mixing different sized speakers together in a rig!!
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There are actually quite a lot of mixed-sized-speaker cabinets being made by respectable music manufacturers. They're easy to overlook if you are not looking for them, but there are a lot of them out there.


That said, I'm sure there is some "engineering by looks" going on.


uOpt said:
That big drawing is nonsense because what is in and out of phase depends on the frequency of individual harmonics.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

I have made it a point to never worry about phase issues. I'm sure the possibility exists that it could drastically affect the sound in a negative way in some circumstances, but IMO those circumstances are exceedingly rare, and not worth wasting time on.

If you play a bass that has more than one coil per string, you are starting your whole signal chain with phase issues. IMO the benefit of playing with multiple coils far outweighs any possible negative phase influence those multiple coils might be causing.

Personally, I have no problem with the idea of using different sized speakers at a gig.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

lol the big drawing is ,merely a joke, I shoulda said that ;)

I will never pretend to be a physics major! I want a summary of studies done; there are definitely mixed speaker cabinets without crossovers, and famous musicians that use em, I just refuse to think these mixed-speakersize-cabs compute until I see a summary of scientific studies and some articles that approve the designs. I mean, almost all guitar and bass cabs have two speakers of the same size, so I figure there is some rhyme and reason to it until someone explains the science to me in laymans terms in some well respected scientific type articles or guitarist article summaries.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

Seriously? Would that even change your mind? You're starting to sound pretty darn silly.

What would you think if you read something like this?

I've been using mixed speaker cabinets my entire playing career. I know there are musicians out there who use only the same size speakers, but I just don't believe it's as beneficial as some of those guys claim. Heck, the speaker companies make cabinets with different size speakers in them, right? They wouldn't do that if it didn't work, right? So I won't believe anybody who says anything good about those unisize speaker cabinets until a bunch of scientific studies are done and then distilled into one easy-to-read summary. Oh, and I'm not a physics major, so they need to break it down into potato-head language so I can understand it.

THEN I'll have an open mind about it!

:rolleyes:

You're starting off by assuming there are significant phase problems with mixed sized speakers. I read the thread you linked, and several people pointed out the inherently bad methodology used to create the graphs in that thread that support the phase-problems theory.

I'm certain that there are phase issues with using different sized speakers. I'm also certain that in the vast vast majority of cases, those phase issues are inconsequential, just like using two pickups or playing a major 7th chord -- or using speakers that are the same size but have different specs or are in different cabinets, or standing in front of one side of your perfectly identical speakers.

Seriously, do you ever play bass or guitar using two pickups? Or a dual-coil humbucker? If you do, do you worry about the phase issues caused by that?
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

these are just ramblings, musings on my part. I have a lot of bass gear, humbuckers etc and I worry about ALL OF IT ALL THE TIME :( I already have a 212, two 410s, and a 8" combo, maybe I will play them all at the same time, who knows! phase it up mang :banana:
I am interested in this, so I made a post on it ;)
 
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Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

To be clear, phase does matter sometimes, e.g. the 4 speakers in a 4x12 or 4x10 should better be in phase :)
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

There can be an issue created by the times taken by the voice coils to accelerate the driver cones. Typically, a ten would be expected to "speak" more quickly than a fifteen. These differences could create comb filtering effects.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

Yeah, but even the speaker surround lags a bit behind the dustcap. Oh noes, taht implies a phase shift within a single speaker :naughty:
Comb filtering occurs all the time in enclosed spaces with sound reflecting off walls... I don't specifically exclude the possibility of some cancellation among any given 410 and any 115... Yet, I was grinning like a madman at when I did a gig running such a stack, shakin' and quakin' the venue.
My sound was way bigger, deeper than the 410 alone and way punchier than the single fifteen. There, I just testified such a combination can work together additively without bi-amping.
I'd love to try an 18" extending the 410's low end.
 
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Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

I'd like to add there are much more significant phase problems from the stage sound and the PA sound as the PA speakers are never level with instrument and and reflections of back walls etc but you don't notice it alot (unless it is really bad) because other things outway these phase issues and you can't hear slight comb filtering that easy unless you start walking around (TBH most PA's in small venues are slightly out of phase due to the construction of buildings and where the speakers are places). I much bigger problem occurs when things are WIRED out of phase so that when one speaker pushes the other pulls, the more physically inphase the more out of phase speakers in these situations would be. Plus comb filtering sometimes makes things sound better.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

I don't understand the premise. You simply use an old 9 Volt battery to check the phase of each speaker in a multi-speaker cabinet, and make sure multiple cabs are all in phase with one another. Beyond that there's really nothing you can do. If a combination of cabs then sounds like it has some kind of phasing issue, check each cab's sound individually, and if it seems to be the combination of cabs, the choice is yours about whether to use them in combination or not.

btw, speakers are more efficient when stacked vertically as opposed to being arrayed horizontally.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

I go to some clubs with very pro sound/tweaking and the bassguitar is drowned out! The premise is that there is a way around this, acoustics are one thing, and mixing speakers/cabs is another.

in real world design terms, a certain speaker acts in a certain way and has certain physical properties. The assumption that 15s are louder in the lows is basically wrong, pretty much always going to be quieter than an equivalent 4x10 because they have about half the cone area. Plus they handle less power, so the 15 on top is so you can hear the 15 fart out and turn down, otherwise the 4x10 will drown it out. The premise is that some engineering designs are flawed, like mixing small speakers with big speakers, and other variables too.

I just do not think that mixing cabs/speakers is such a great idea when trying to maintain a bassguitar sound that is audible, here is some food for thought:

http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm

funny bass cab: http://tecamp.de/en/products/cabinets/41-bad-cab.html#overview

Equipped with 2 x 15”, 2 x 12”, 4 x 10” and two NTW1 high frequency drivers the Bad Cab is designed to accurately reproduce the entire tonal spectrum with unparalleled superiority. Even at lower volumes this cabinet lets you feel what you play due to its moving tremendous amounts of air .The BadCab offers a “sensual” experience all its own.
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

everdrone said:
in real world design terms, a certain speaker acts in a certain way and has certain physical properties.
Click to expand...

Well, that certainly narrows it down! :biglaugh:


everdrone said:
The assumption that 15s are louder in the lows is basically wrong, pretty much always going to be quieter than an equivalent 4x10 because they have about half the cone area. Plus they handle less power, so the 15 on top is so you can hear the 15 fart out and turn down, otherwise the 4x10 will drown it out.
Click to expand...

That depends entirely on the rigs involved. Assumptions? Two 15s have more surface area than four 10s. Doh! There goes your argument! Or are we supposed to assume you are talking about a single 15 matched with four 10s? And are we supposed to assume the cabinets were designed to be used together? Or are we assuming just any ol' 15 compared to any ol' 410?


everdrone said:
The premise is that some engineering designs are flawed, like mixing small speakers with big speakers, and other variables too.
Click to expand...

Of course, if your premise is based on assumptions, then your premise is only as good as the assumptions it's based on. For someone who's not a physics major, you seem pretty certain you know which designs are flawed. Do you know what the engineering principles were behind the designs you think are flawed? Or are you just googling to find someone who agrees with you and uses big words?

You pick your scientist, you pick your science.


everdrone said:
I just do not think that mixing cabs/speakers is such a great idea when trying to maintain a bassguitar sound that is audible
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An engineering friend of mine had a saying, "You can't argue with results." Out here in the real world, people use mixed rigs all the time and have perfectly audible bass guitar sounds.


You tap-danced past my previous question. Do you play an instrument with more than one coil per string? If so, you are starting your entire signal chain with a phase artifact. Does that bother you? If not, why not? And why obsess over differences in speakers if you aren't concerned about phase issues in your signal source?

You seem to be on a crusade to convince people that mixed speakers are a bad idea. Can't you just accept the fact that a significant number of people are going to disagree with you?
 
Re: Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

lol I know people disagree with me

I just made a thread, I am not obsessed about possible phasing issues though ;) ...I was obsessed about it prior to getting my rigs though.

On the other hand, I am obsessed about tone and not having the bass guitar being drowned out of the mix :) anything I can learn about that is good stuff :beerchug:
 
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