Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

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dalcin

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greetings
So, i want to upgrade the factory pickups of my SG and i searched a lot about it. I think the Phat Cats are really great.
But, my question is: is the neck pickup different from the bridge one? Because there is only one type of Phat Cats on Seymour´s Duncan website.
Sorry if the question is stupid.

My cumpliments /m/
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Welcome to the forum.

You can order either the neck or the bridge model Phat Cat.

The bridge Phat Cat has a bit more output (more resistance, more winds) than the neck PC.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Have you actually used Phat Cats in mahogany? I was hugely disappointed. The neck is very warm, almost devoid of treble, and it overpowers the 'weak and thin' bridge Phat Cat. In warm woods, those PU's aren't wound right for their A2 magnets. They sound better in a Strat, but who's putting them in Strats? They really need to be revamped. To salvage mine, I changed magnets and was able to get them to sound like P-90's should.

You're much better off getting a different HB-sized P-90. like a GFS Mean 90. They're very popular here, great tones (they have A5 magnets, as do Gibson's and almost every other P-90 on the planet).
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

blueman335 said:
Have you actually used Phat Cats in mahogany? I was hugely disappointed. The neck is very warm, almost devoid of treble, and it overpowers the 'weak and thin' bridge Phat Cat.
Click to expand...

Even with 500K tone and volume pots? That's what you use for the neck pos right?
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Mine sounds pretty good in the Line 6...

I'd give it a whirl. All depends on your budget.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

El Supremo said:
Even with 500K tone and volume pots? That's what you use for the neck pos right?
Click to expand...

Even with 500K's, which is what I always use with neck P-90's and HB's. A2's are the darkest alnico, with a lot of midrange and a loose low-end. If a neck PU is wound too hot, A2's kill the treble, which is often the case with Phat Cats in warm-toned woods like mahogany. A2's are also a low output magnet, and in the bridge slot (which doesn't have as much string energy), they can be fairly puny. In a one PU guitar like an SG Jr., that's not an issue, but when you want to balance output and EQ's of two PU's, things may not work well.

Phat Cats were one of the first HB-sized P-90's, and since they came out, competitors have introduced products with improved features:
- Phat Cats don't have screws holding the baseplate to the coil, like every other P-90, so the cover holds the whole thing together. Not a good system.
- Phat Cats don't have a separate (third) wire for ground, which the majority of P-90's do these days. Even budget-priced GFS' do.
- The winds don't work well with the magnets in warm woods, which is where most end up (LP's, SG's, 335's, hollowbodies, etc). They don't sound like P-90's. You can swap magnets to do it, but it's harder than with other P-90's, as the cover is soldered on.
- The neck PC is much louder than the bridge model (besides the EQ issues). They really don't make a good set together in many guitars.

I'm a big Duncan fan, I have more Duncan's than anything else, but the reality is that Phat Cats just seem like an early attempt that wasn't fully thought through, in both design and intended market. The competition makes them look obsolete. They really need a product improvement plan to make them more competitive. There's many better ones to choose from. From my perspective, that needs to change. Duncan should be leading the pack with HB-sized P-90's. I'm hoping this gets addressed and Duncan can take back some market share. When GFS budget-priced Mean 90's can beat Duncan's offering across the board, it's time to make a change.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Maybe OP should check out the P-94 Gibson offers then? Wanted to try them myself for my SG, but want to change my strat first.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

El Supremo said:
Maybe OP should check out the P-94 Gibson offers then? Wanted to try them myself for my SG, but want to change my strat first.
Click to expand...

There hasn't been much here on P-94's, and certainly no big outpouring of love for them. Probably the single most popular HB-sized P-90 here is the Mean 90.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

INTERJECTION

If we are going to attempt to make comparisons about how anything sounds and then describe it through the written word, should we not all undergo hearing tests and post our results? Otherwise, there is no datum point.

Luckily, there is a way to bypass the effects of ailing amplification, hearing loss and subjectivity. Sound clips.

Make it so.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Funkfingers said:
If we are going to attempt to make comparisons about how anything sounds and then describe it through the written word, should we not all undergo hearing tests and post our results? Otherwise, there is no datum point.

Luckily, there is a way to bypass the effects of ailing amplification, hearing loss and subjectivity. Sound clips.
Click to expand...

As you know from the sound clips on this site, they vary based on the individual wood, guitar design, string gauge, amp, tubes, speakers, pedals, playing style, etc. which means results vary, making them of little value. When PU's don't sound the way it was hoped, they're typically replaced or mags swapped out, so clips of what didn't work out well would be very scarce.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

I've liked my PC's in everything I've put them in. Strats, tele's, (yes, some of us use them in Fenders), hololow body guitars, semi hollows, chambered single cuts, LP's, and shred sticks. The neck, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SET PICKUP AND POLEPIECE HEIGHT, is clean and clear. The bridge is pretty bright and brash, but mixes well with the neck when properly adjusted, and sounds great through a good amp.
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Benjy_26 said:
I've liked my PC's in everything I've put them in. Strats, tele's, (yes, some of us use them in Fenders), hololow body guitars, semi hollows, chambered single cuts, LP's, and shred sticks. The neck, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO SET PICKUP AND POLEPIECE HEIGHT, is clean and clear. The bridge is pretty bright and brash, but mixes well with the neck when properly adjusted, and sounds great through a good amp.
Click to expand...

This has been my own experience as well. The Phat Cats are excellent as an articulate meaty single coil pickup. I see this pickup inquiry come up here on the board and its is time for a revised dialogue. 10 years ago the conversation would have been much different as a larger user base for this pickup was active here on the board. These are just great sounding, dynamic and responsive pickups...as is. I know that actually keeping a production model in its original form is out of fashion here on the board! Ha!! But respectfully the overly 'dark' neck, harsh or thin bridge and out of balance automatic response is a truly incomplete description at best and certainly not any general consensus. At one time the Phat Cat was my main pickup set and I always loved the tone (I will hunt down some photos and documented audio clips or studio photos). I used the pickups for years. It doesn't mean it performs well in all guitars or for some users, but niot all of us are looking for that sound. That is valid and pretty self evident. I understand it all. But that would be true of all guitars/pickups combos. All points are valid here but we need to keep the conversation in proper perspective. Magnet swap is not needed and 500k pot is not automatic. It just isn't.

The PC are everything a large single coil a2 is expected to be. If you understand what to expect from the tonal quality of a P-90, these will not surprise you. BTW, they are not P-90s, they are P-90-ish and very cool. Some people think MFD pickups are harsh and thin and to some they are. For others they are the holy grail. All guitars and pickup combos need to be set-up right and this is no exception. BTW, this pickup sounds great in the neck of Tele with 250k pots. Whoops! I said it. 250k pots. Yep. The PC can work really great in Mahogany (If you like the tonal color of a P-90) but you really you wont know till you install them.

As mentioned, there is currently a smaller user base of this pickup active on the board so the exchanges seem out of balance but there is large real-time user base overall for the past 12-15 years and you will be hard pressed to find even a small percentage of negative reviews in relationship to the positive reviews. My suggestion is to give them a try. Cheers and respect, RG
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

Rodney Gene said:
At one time the Phat Cat was my main pickup set and I always loved the tone (I will hunt down some photos and documented audio clips or studio photos). I used the pickups for years.
Click to expand...

Sweet! I found both. The pics need to be scanned, but I used the Phat Cats for all of the Radio Outlaw recordings (Hard-core heavy Rockabilly). 'Start Your Engines' is still available on Side One Dummy records and the tune 'BoneYard' rocks the PCs. Although they were recorded on ADAT they sound great LOL! I used them with a Peavey Classic 50 4x10 combo (That is a very warm spongy amp as is). I'll post as soon as I can scan and transfer the tunes.

BTW... the Phat Cats are like alot of great Tele pickups, the tone knob and volume knob are your friend. Cheers!
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

There's a number of members here that have said PC's are too warm for them in the neck slot of their mahogany guitars. They tend to do better in brighter woods. Seems odd, as most players are probably trying to replicate a LP Special or SG Special when they buy Phat Cats, and I think that's hurt PC sales, as they certainly don't have that kind of sound. Most people don't understand that PC's weren't going for that in the first place. A neck PC in a typical LP is far darker than most players want. Instead of a sharp, open-sounding neck PU, theirs may sound like it's in a closet.

Phat Cats ARE P-90's, just a slightly different shape coil. Look at the variety of what falls under the 'humbucker' category. Slightly different coils sizes don't disqualify them from being HB's. What makes PC's a little different from most is the A2 magents and the cover holding the whole thing together, which not everyone sees as virtues. Still a P-90.

There's a small segment of loyal, hardcore P-90 fans. Some of them are not happy with Phat Cats. The Phat Cat fan base (with them in the stock form) is far smaller yet. The OP needs to be aware of this before making a purchase. If he's wanting an SG Special sound, he's not going to get it. I think that's where some of the disappointment comes in; players are expecting them to sound like the traditional P-90's they know and love, and have heard for decades. It's like a PAF fan buying an Invader: yeah it's a humbucker, but it doesn't sound anything like a PAF.

BTW, over the years I've owned 11 PC's; took all 22 A2's out of them and gave them away to forum members. I also have some P-90 guitars, so I have some idea what I'm talking about with PC's and P-90's, and how to set them up. If you want a more traditional P-90 sound, swap the magnets in a Phat Cat, and they'll get you there. Most buyers don't know going into it that they're not getting the classic P-90 sound.
 
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Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

blueman335 said:
There's a number of members here that have said PC's are too warm for them in the neck slot of their mahogany guitars. They tend to do better in brighter woods. Seems odd, as it's often players are probably trying to replicate a LP Special or SG Special when they buy Phat Cats, and I think that's hurt PC sales, as they certainly don't have that kind of sound. Most people don't understand that PC's weren't going for that in the first place. A neck PC in a typical LP is far darker than most players want. Instead of a sharp, open-sounding neck PU, theirs may sound like it's in a closet.

Phat Cats ARE P-90's, just a slightly different shape coil. Look at the variety of what falls under the 'humbucker' category. Slightly different coils sizes don't disqualify them from being HB's. What makes PC's a little different from most is the A2 magents and the cover holding the whole thing together, which not everyone sees as virtues. Still a P-90.

There's a small segment of loyal, hardcore P-90 fans. Some of them are not happy with Phat Cats. The Phat Cat fan base (with them in the stock form) is far smaller yet. The OP needs to be aware of this before making a purchase. If he's wanting an SG Special sound, he's not going to get it. I think that's where some of the disappointment comes in; players are expecting them to sound like the traditional P-90's they know and love, and have heard for decades. It's like a PAF fan buying an Invader: yeah it's a humbucker, but it doesn't sound anything like a PAF.

BTW, over the years I've owned 11 PC's; took all 22 A2's out of them and gave them away to forum members. I also have some P-90 guitars. So, I have some idea what I'm talking about with PC's and P-90's and how to set them up. If you want a more traditional P-90 sound, swap the magnets in a Phat Cat, and they'll get you there. Most buyers don't know going into it that they're not getting the classic P-90 sound.
Click to expand...

In your opinion, what is the best magnet to put with a Phat Cat..?
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

DeathMetalRob said:
In your opinion, what is the best magnet to put with a Phat Cat..?
Click to expand...

In the neck, an A5/A5 gives the classic P-90 sound. Open, sharp high-end, but A5's can be bassy in some woods, especially in LP's. An A5/A4 dials down the bass a little and fills in some midrange. An A5/A3 is brigher, but the high-end isn't quite as sharp as twin A5's, and of course it's not as bassy either. The A3 gives it a bit more mids too. In an SG, A5/A3 was actually 'chimey.' I initially tried an A5/A2 with my first neck Phat Cat, and it added a dash of treble, but it still sounded like a blanket was over the speaker.

For the bridge, again twin A5's are classic P-90. You really hear it's a single coil, with all the treble and thin mids. I prefer a warmer, fuller sounding bridge PU myself, and my favorite in an A8/A4. It's warmer, with some midrange punch, but still retains a cutting high-end, and has strong output (unlike the stock A2's). I also use A8/A5 for a bit more treble, A4/A4 (the Fralin special!), and UOA5/UOA5 (for vintage texture). All of these have more output than twin A2's, so they balance better with the neck PU.

I can understand Duncan wanting to do something different than twin A5's in Phat Cats, but A4's would have been a much better choice than A2's. Lindy Fralin uses A4's in his P-90's and PAF's. Zhang (master PU winder on the forum) said neck PC's are wound about 1K too hot for A2 magnets, and he took that off of his neck PC to get some treble in it. I like his quote on bridge PC's being: 'weak and thin.' Sums up what I've experienced with mine.
 
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Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

blueman335 said:
There's a number of members here that have said PC's are too warm for them in the neck slot of their mahogany guitars. They tend to do better in brighter woods. Seems odd, as it's often players are probably trying to replicate a LP Special or SG Special when they buy Phat Cats, and I think that's hurt PC sales, as they certainly don't have that kind of sound. Most people don't understand that PC's weren't going for that in the first place. A neck PC in a typical LP is far darker than most players want. Instead of a sharp, open-sounding neck PU, theirs may sound like it's in a closet.

Phat Cats ARE P-90's, just a slightly different shape coil. Look at the variety of what falls under the 'humbucker' category. Slightly different coils sizes don't disqualify them from being HB's. What makes PC's a little different from most is the A2 magents and the cover holding the whole thing together, which not everyone sees as virtues. Still a P-90.

There's a small segment of loyal, hardcore P-90 fans. Some of them are not happy with Phat Cats. The Phat Cat fan base (with them in the stock form) is far smaller yet. The OP needs to be aware of this before making a purchase. If he's wanting an SG Special sound, he's not going to get it. I think that's where some of the disappointment comes in; players are expecting them to sound like the traditional P-90's they know and love, and have heard for decades. It's like a PAF fan buying an Invader: yeah it's a humbucker, but it doesn't sound anything like a PAF.

BTW, over the years I've owned 11 PC's; took all 22 A2's out of them and gave them away to forum members. I also have some P-90 guitars. So, I have some idea what I'm talking about with PC's and P-90's and how to set them up. If you want a more traditional P-90 sound, swap the magnets in a Phat Cat, and they'll get you there. Most buyers don't know going into it that they're not getting the classic P-90 sound.
Click to expand...

Sure I get it Blueman, I understand that this is your story. Your 11 purchases and 22 swaps are part of your 'qualifying experience' for your story and the other 'guys' you know who feel the same way. Its cool. I accept your opinion and anybody elses as valid as anybody else's. That is not in question. Your personal opinion around this pickup is evident. Still being the most persistent wheel on any forum doesn't have any relevance for me as I have been a user and player also... for many years and my experiences are different. Not more valid, but different. I just find it persistently in-accurate in relationship. I think it would be best to just post a few clips don't you? Or video? End of story-telling really. A validated clip or picture speaks volumes and is far too easy to do. Post them in this thread. With 11 guitars equipped with Phat Cats there must be some audio documentation at least? I will do the same in support of the OP as I have been finding some great stuff this morning. I think if we posted some clips it would help balance out the reality here. I am also willing to install a fresh set and do a bonafide live video review. Why don't we both and put it to rest?

The real-time truth is that there are many more stories and other valid (albeit less persistent) stories not being told here. The dialogue is bent. A potential user also needs to know that the current design by Seymour Duncan, the world class designer with a2 magnets is fantastic and that these pickups rock clear and hard as hell 'as is' going in to it. You may like to swap magnets...but to automatically suggest it is erroneous. (again, as in fashion as this suggestion has become) So lets see: clear, articulate and spongy like all great a2 pickups are in any number of guitars. Also describing the general qualities of magnets in relation to pickup tone is helpful, but it is just that. The general description of magnets. Its not a real time 'outcome'.

Even with that believe it or not, we are the utter minority of users on this board. We are a tiny percentage of the working satisfied Phat Cat users in the music making, guitar playing world. Maybe 1-2% care about this dialogue LOL! The idea of swapping out the magnets is cultish to the average player, many players cash in on the current gold found in the stock design (in other words there are basically 98% of users, builders and OEM purchases feeling and getting jiggy with their great Phat Cats as designed. Loyal or purist P-90 users should and do use P-90s. If gthe use Phat Cast they should expect something in the family, but different. Not too complicated there. I found pics today of the same guitar with Phat Cats, Hot P-90s, Antiquity Dog Ear P-90s. They all rocked equally for me.

Well, I already way overdid my forum time for the week genuinely. I will not have nor want the last word on this thread..haha! But this will be my last word on this (Ill post a few clips though and hope Blueman does the same)

Cheers and respect, RG
 
Re: Phat Cats on a Epiphone SG

blueman335 said:
In the neck, an A5/A5 gives the classic P-90 sound. Open, sharp high-end, but A5's can be bassy in some woods, especially in LP's. An A5/A4 dials down the bass a little and fills in some midrange. An A5/A3 is brigher, but the high-end isn't quite as sharp as twin A5's, and of course it's not as bassy either. The A3 gives it a bit more mids too. In an SG, A5/A3 was actually 'chimey.' I initially tried an A5/A2 with my first neck Phat Cat, and it added a dash of treble, but it still sounded like a blanket was over the speaker.

For the bridge, again twin A5's are classic P-90. You really hear it's a single coil, with all the treble and thin mids. I prefer a warmer, fuller sounding bridge PU myself, and my favorite in an A8/A4. It's warmer, with some midrange punch, but still retains a cutting high-end, and has strong output (unlike the stock A2's). I also use A8/A5 for a bit more treble, A4/A4 (the Fralin special!), and UOA5/UOA5 (for vintage texture). All of these have more output than twin A2's, so they balance better with the neck PU.

I can understand Duncan wanting to do something different than twin A5's in Phat Cats, but A4's would have been a much better choice than A2's. Lindy Fralin uses A4's in his P-90's and PAF's. Zhang (master PU winder on the forum) said neck PC's are wound about 1K too hot for A2 magnets, and he took that off of his neck PC to get some treble in it. I like his quote on bridge PC's being: 'weak and thin.' Sums up what I've experienced with mine.
Click to expand...

Oh right. I've not seen a Phat Cat in hand, it was fitted when I got the guitar back from the guy. So, are there two magnets in a Phat Cat..?
 
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