Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

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Punkrot

New member
Hello Tone Gods!

I recently replaced all the electronics in my Epiphone Baritone Les Paul with stuff that doesn't suck (LOL), including a shiny new set of Duncan pickups—the Pegasus/Sentient combo. The standard 300k pots were swapped for a pair of 500k CTS units.

The good stuff:
"Wow! I can, like, hear my chords now!" (i.e. Superb clarity, even under sToOpId amounts of gain)

The not so good stuff:
Axe sadly doesn't sound as "humongous" as it used to, which makes me sad…

I play heavy duty melodic crust punk crap (basically super thick, minimalist metal type stuff with bass-heavy tone and no shred). Complex chords occur with regularity. Neck is for super warm, mellow cleans. Bridge is a one-way street to Saturation City.

So the big question is this:
In order to make this axe sound huge again, should I drop in 250k pots to tame brightness? OR should I seek a different set of pups?

I like Alnico V magnets, so I'm considering the Custom 5 for the bridge, but I really have no idea… I just need this thing to sound bigger. Like how it used to, only minus the mud (gawd, there was so much mud…). Maybe a higher gain set would be the right move?

Also, it is beginning to occur to me that "gigantic, thick, diesel-powered freight train of monster tone" and "clarity" may occupy opposite sides of the Thunderdome… Which is unfortunate for me, LOL.

Any advice would be deeply appreciated. Thanks!
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

What amp are you using?


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Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

VinceT said:
What amp are you using?
Click to expand...

I've tried this setup through a couple of other amps, as well as a digital environment (Amplitube) through monitors and headphones, and the situation is not as beefy as I'd like in all cases—though it definitely WAS beefy enough before the electronics upgrade. (Maybe "mud" and "beef" become synonyms at some point?)

However for the record, my (basically Frankenstein-style) setup at present is a 1968 Ampeg Jupiter 42 (a very rich, warm, and buttery clean-channel-only amp with built-in spring reverb—so sweet!) plugged into a Randall 2x12 1x15 oversized cab (which is like an freakin' earthquake when cranked). I like to call that cab "The Evictifier." For distortion, I'm using the Landmine pedal (also not known for a "bright" sound). I had the Ampeg completely overhauled a couple of years back, so it's in tippy-top condition despite it's age. This is the exact same setup I had before the electronics swap.

I'm saving up for an Engl Fireball 100, but they're pricey little bastards, so I'm not there yet.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Really? None of the epic Masters of Tone have any input on this?
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Your back, i still stand by my original recommendation of the distortion or the black winter.

The pegasus and the sentient are very modern pickups, which while very defined and clear sounding, lose some of the heaviness for extra definition. Don't go back to 250k pots, you can always turn the treble down on your amp but you can't add back in the highs the pots cut out.

I would even recommend the alt 8 before the custom 5. there was a recent thread about the distortion in the les paul and how huge it sounds, i can't find it at the moment. Don't be scared of ceramic magnets, its the pickup wind that give the pickup its sound, the magnets just flavor them.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Hello Allstarrme!

Thanks for the tip on the pots—I'll stick with the 500ks, then.

As for magnets, I know ceramics sound fine, I just find them to be a little cold and brittle compared to A5s. I've also always played A5 pickups, so I'm "attuned" to that sound—there's something about their quality which sounds "right" to me, if that makes sense. Plus, for the kind of crap I play, definition is good, but too much definition is somewhat unnecessary—LOL.

I'll consider the double D, but I'd rather have a Br00talz A5 pup, if there is such a thing…
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Hey, I just want to throw in that this has been my main guitar for the past 11 years. The stock pickups sounded really muffled, like no treble. Switching to SDs, helped to balance out the sound.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

baritone said:
Hey, I just want to throw in that this has been my main guitar for the past 11 years. The stock pickups sounded really muffled, like no treble. Switching to SDs, helped to balance out the sound.
Click to expand...

That's awesome! I love my Bari LP—it's amazing! So many bands play super low tunings with regular guitars (I know I did), and the tone—not to mention intonation—suffers horribly as a result. You've gotta use the right tool for the right job!

Anyway, what pickups did you put in?

The Pegasus/Sentient are definitely crazy on the clarity (it's uncanny—like, you can hear everything even with "ALL THE GAIN"). But as I mentioned, something that sounds bigger would be more to my taste.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Like clarity, a lot of bass... Sounds like a Nazgul or SLUG would be a better fit for you. SLUG would probably be the ultimate for what you are describing, though it is $130 a pickup. Though they do show up on ebay from time to time. The downside is the pickup ring. You would have to modify one or have it in a flat ring. Nazgul has much more bass than the pegasus and is super aggressive. Sheer massiveness with clarity... That's SLUG.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Gibson 1964 said:
Like clarity, a lot of bass... Sounds like a Nazgul or SLUG would be a better fit for you. SLUG would probably be the ultimate for what you are describing, though it is $130 a pickup. Though they do show up on ebay from time to time. The downside is the pickup ring. You would have to modify one or have it in a flat ring. Nazgul has much more bass than the pegasus and is super aggressive. Sheer massiveness with clarity... That's SLUG.
Click to expand...

I had considered the Nazgul, but in demo clips it seemed too cold and djenty for my tastes. Plus I'm trying to avoid ceramics.

Regarding the SLUG, crazy high output pickups isn't really what I'm after, either. I mean, probably something hotter than the Pegasus would give me more of the oomph I want, but in my experience after a certain point gain starts to obscure clarity. 48k DCR just seems silly to me—though it might get my 1968 Ampeg to finally distort on its own, but I doubt that would be a good thing—LOL.

Also, there's no way I'm putting my strings next to a magnet that hot. If I wanted crazy high output pups, I'd probably go with something like the Lace Drop & Gains since they have low string pull. But again, insane-o-gain straight outta the jack isn't really my goal.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Punkrot said:
I had considered the Nazgul, but in demo clips it seemed too cold and djenty for my tastes. Plus I'm trying to avoid ceramics.

Regarding the SLUG, crazy high output pickups isn't really what I'm after, either. I mean, probably something hotter than the Pegasus would give me more of the oomph I want, but in my experience after a certain point gain starts to obscure clarity. 48k DCR just seems silly to me—though it might get my 1968 Ampeg to finally distort on its own, but I doubt that would be a good thing—LOL.

Also, there's no way I'm putting my strings next to a magnet that hot. If I wanted crazy high output pups, I'd probably go with something like the Lace Drop & Gains since they have low string pull. But again, insane-o-gain straight outta the jack isn't really my goal.
Click to expand...
Well you can think that based on the DCR and you will continue to be completely and utterly mistaken.

I have experience with all the pickups you mentioned. I think I currently own guitars loaded with most of them currently. I have been playing for years and I use things that range from p-13s to SLUG. I don't care how much output pickups have. I bought a SLUG out of sheer curiosity and expected to flip it. However, its a cool pickup, one which I might like as well crystal clean as with distortion. I have a nice collection of amps. Barons, Soldano, Frenzel, Fender, Gibson, Phaez and a bunch more. I have the tools that render the amount of juice a pickup produces rather irrelevant. a Baron K2 or an SLO can distort pretty much any pickup made quite thoroughly.

The SLUG is the sound you are describing. It isn't seemingly much higher output than the BWs or Nazgul. It is a bit hotter, but not a crazy jump. It might seem silly to you, but I have tried every pickup you are mentioning. The SLUG has a lot of clarity. Not quite as much as a pegasus or bw, but not a lot less. It isn't what you think it is at all. It sounds great clean. It cops a great social distortion tone. It does Sabbath well. And it brings a lot of lows and mids when needed. Will it distort something a distortion wouldn't? Not hugely more. I mean when I set a preamp to just barely clip with a nazgul, the slug did distort things a little more. The drop and gains are a little thinner and maybe a little less clear than the slug.

Insane-o-gain is not what they truly bring to the table. SLUG really is much more akin to what i wanted an invader or a BKP Warpig to be. The invader is much muddier than the SLUG. So is the warpig. A ceramic magnet has no sound on its own. Avoiding ceramics is truly an absurd goal as the sum of the parts is the sound, and I have a suspicion that a SLUG with a5 would be muddy. SLUGS are essentially more in line with an overgrown firebird pickup in construction and are truly unique. Yeah, looking on paper they sound absurd, when you apply standard concepts of 30+ year old humbucker designs. If you think of it as an overgrown firebird, you will be closer to correct. They are not going to give a vintage tele bridge pickup a run for the money on twang.They are probably the closest match by far to what you are describing tonally though. And massive with clarity is kind of a hard one to find done right. Slugs also are rather warm, clear pickups. I could play Celtic folk on them and sound excellent. I could go as heavy as heavy goes with them as well. I could also play punk as well with it.

But you have read the specs sheet. Yeah there is a clear pickup that is absolutely massive sounding. It ticks all your boxes, except for your misguided assumptions. And does it mess with the strings like stratitis? nope. Have you noticed, the recent Lord of the Strings series has an absolutely ridiculous amount of clarity? I believe the same ideas which produced some of the more innovative, bright, high DCR pickups in the duncan line are here and played out ingeniously.
 
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Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Gibson 1964 said:
Well you can think that based on the DCR and you will continue to be completely and utterly mistaken.

I have experience with all the pickups you mentioned. I think I currently own guitars loaded with most of them currently. I have been playing for years and I use things that range from p-13s to SLUG. I don't care how much output pickups have. I bought a SLUG out of sheer curiosity and expected to flip it. However, its a cool pickup, one which I might like as well crystal clean as with distortion. I have a nice collection of amps. Barons, Soldano, Frenzel, Fender, Gibson, Phaez and a bunch more.

The SLUG is the sound you are describing. It isn't seemingly much higher output than the BWs or Nazgul. It is a bit hotter, but not a crazy jump. It might seem silly to you, but I have tried every pickup you are mentioning. The SLUG has a lot of clarity. Not quite as much as a pegasus or bw, but not a lot less. It isn't what you think it is at all. It sounds great clean. It cops a great social distortion tone. It does Sabbath well. And it brings a lot of lows and mids when needed. Will it distort something a distortion wouldn't? Not hugely more. I mean when I set a preamp to just barely clip with a nazgul, the slug did distort things a little more. The drop and gains are a little thinner and maybe a little less clear than the slug.

Insane-o-gain is not what they truly bring to the table. SLUG really is much more akin to what i wanted an invader or a BKP Warpig to be. The invader is much muddier than the SLUG. So is the warpig. Avoiding ceramics is truly an absurd goal as the sum of the parts is the sound. A ceramic magnet has no sound on its own. SLUGS are essentially more in line with an overgrown firebird pickup in construction and are truly unique. yeah, looking on paper they sound absurd, but they are unique and actually are probably the closest match by far to what you are describing. Slugs also are rather warm, clear pickups. I could play Celtic folk on them and sound excellent. I could go as heavy as heavy goes with them as well. I could also play punk as well with it.

But you have read the specs sheet. Yeah there is a clear pickup that is absolutely massive sounding. It ticks all your boxes, except for your misguided assumptions.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your wisdom, and respect your experience—not such a fan of the attitude, though.

I mean, jeez… Did I commit a pickup crime just 'cause I like A5s?

In any case, I didn't say your suggestion was silly. I just think 48k output seems somewhat superfluous.

Based on my experience with the Lace Drop & Gains, I wouldn't describe them as "thin," though I did find that they lacked clarity under high gain (despite what everyone else seems to report).
 
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Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

I went with a Jazz in the neck position. When unplugged, the guitar sounds really full- bassy with lots of sustain. The Jazz pulls that acoustic quality out through the speaker.

In the bridge position, I have a Dimebucker. The midrange blast balances well with the guitar's unplugged tone. However, the pickups which would be best in the bridge position of this instrument are standard matches for the Jazz: JB, Custom 5, & especially the Distortion.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Punkrot said:
I appreciate your wisdom, and respect your experience—not such a fan of the attitude, though.

I mean, jeez… Did I commit a pickup crime just 'cause I like A5s?

In any case, I didn't say your suggestion was silly. I just think 48k output seems somewhat superfluous.

Based on my experience with the Lace Drop & Gains, I wouldn't describe them as "thin," though I did find that they lacked clarity under high gain (despite what everyone else seems to report).
Click to expand...

I didn't see any attitude in his response. As has been stated magnets & DC resistance are just parts and specs of a pickup. It's the total package that matters.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Gibson 1964 said:
Well you can think that based on the DCR and you will continue to be completely and utterly mistaken.

I have experience with all the pickups you mentioned. I think I currently own guitars loaded with most of them currently. I have been playing for years and I use things that range from p-13s to SLUG. I don't care how much output pickups have. I bought a SLUG out of sheer curiosity and expected to flip it. However, its a cool pickup, one which I might like as well crystal clean as with distortion. I have a nice collection of amps. Barons, Soldano, Frenzel, Fender, Gibson, Phaez and a bunch more. I have the tools that render the amount of juice a pickup produces rather irrelevant. a Baron K2 or an SLO can distort pretty much any pickup made quite thoroughly.

The SLUG is the sound you are describing. It isn't seemingly much higher output than the BWs or Nazgul. It is a bit hotter, but not a crazy jump. It might seem silly to you, but I have tried every pickup you are mentioning. The SLUG has a lot of clarity. Not quite as much as a pegasus or bw, but not a lot less. It isn't what you think it is at all. It sounds great clean. It cops a great social distortion tone. It does Sabbath well. And it brings a lot of lows and mids when needed. Will it distort something a distortion wouldn't? Not hugely more. I mean when I set a preamp to just barely clip with a nazgul, the slug did distort things a little more. The drop and gains are a little thinner and maybe a little less clear than the slug.

Insane-o-gain is not what they truly bring to the table. SLUG really is much more akin to what i wanted an invader or a BKP Warpig to be. The invader is much muddier than the SLUG. So is the warpig. A ceramic magnet has no sound on its own. Avoiding ceramics is truly an absurd goal as the sum of the parts is the sound, and I have a suspicion that a SLUG with a5 would be muddy. SLUGS are essentially more in line with an overgrown firebird pickup in construction and are truly unique. Yeah, looking on paper they sound absurd, when you apply standard concepts of 30+ year old humbucker designs. If you think of it as an overgrown firebird, you will be closer to correct. They are not going to give a vintage tele bridge pickup a run for the money on twang.They are probably the closest match by far to what you are describing tonally though. And massive with clarity is kind of a hard one to find done right. Slugs also are rather warm, clear pickups. I could play Celtic folk on them and sound excellent. I could go as heavy as heavy goes with them as well. I could also play punk as well with it.

But you have read the specs sheet. Yeah there is a clear pickup that is absolutely massive sounding. It ticks all your boxes, except for your misguided assumptions. And does it mess with the strings like stratitis? nope. Have you noticed, the recent Lord of the Strings series has an absolutely ridiculous amount of clarity? I believe the same ideas which produced some of the more innovative, bright, high DCR pickups in the duncan line are here and played out ingeniously.
Click to expand...

You're really making me wish I had ordered a slug before they went up to $160
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

baritone said:
I went with a Jazz in the neck position. When unplugged, the guitar sounds really full- bassy with lots of sustain. The Jazz pulls that acoustic quality out through the speaker.

In the bridge position, I have a Dimebucker. The midrange blast balances well with the guitar's unplugged tone. However, the pickups which would be best in the bridge position of this instrument are standard matches for the Jazz: JB, Custom 5, & especially the Distortion.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! I'm seriously considering the Custom 5, though there's been some other interesting proposals on this thread so far too…
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Chad said:
I didn't see any attitude in his response. As has been stated magnets & DC resistance are just parts and specs of a pickup. It's the total package that matters.
Click to expand...

Hmm, let's see… "You will continue to be completely and utterly mistaken," "avoiding ceramics is truly an absurd goal," "your misguided assumptions," etc.

Telling someone that their ideas are "mistaken," "absurd," and "misguided" won't help them develop a better understanding of anything, it'll just make them stop listening, regardless of how informed and experienced the alternate opinions presented may be.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Punkrot said:
If the magnet has "no sound" then why would an A5 make the SLUG muddy?

Makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Beginning to think this is a nothing but a troll thread, but...

A magnet is a COMPONENT in a pickup and it contributes to the overall sound, but it makes no sound on its own.
 
Re: Pickup or Pot Change? Baritone Les Paul

Chad said:
Beginning to think this is a nothing but a troll thread, but...

A magnet is a COMPONENT in a pickup and it contributes to the overall sound, but it makes no sound on its own.
Click to expand...

I agree. But we can say the same thing for pickups as a whole, can't we? I mean, no string vibrations, no magnet pull, no sound. But I think most of us agree that different magnets contribute to different sound profiles. Or maybe it's all psychosomatic, and "ceramic" just makes me think that my guitar sounds more "brittle" because the word "ceramic" conjures up images of pottery, and "Alnico V" sounds like several pliable metals combined (which it is), and thus makes me think they sound "softer" and "warmer," while the "V" makes me think they're 2.5 times as badass as Alnico II—LOL.

Regardless, for whatever reason I like A5 magnets—and maybe I should get over that—but that's not what my post was asking about.

I was originally just trying to see what people though about a tone pot change as opposed to a pickup change to add more "oomph" to my sound. So far only one person (Allstarrme) really answered my question (stating that the tone pot change wouldn't really help). Everyone else seems to want to suggest different pickups, and that's fine I guess, but I'd still like to hear more opinions on the pot change idea.

Probably if I really want to sound like the bands I like (His Hero is Gone, Schifosi, Acursed, Martyrdod, etc.) I should just put the stock pups back in and play through a dimed Peavey VTM 120, LOL.
 
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