Pickups way too unbalanced!

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I'm just trying to say I've never had the whole modern bridge pickup/vintage neck pickup combo work for me.

:doh:

I read you the wrong way, Rex. Sorry about that.

FWIW "Why is that so hard to understand?" was intended for a wider audience.

To be candid, identical pickups in the neck and bridge don't work for me in a guitar where I want the bridge pickup to sound full and still have the neck behave as I want it too. "Calibrated" sets (Jazz N/Jazz B, 59N/59B, etc.) are less of a problem.

My current project is definitely geared towards getting good clean tones in a Strat in positions 2-5, including position 3 with the ability to also use positions 1 and 5 with gain and have both positions sing with a smooth top end. Position 5 can also be bright, bouncy and with some glass like a vintage single with A5 poles. Getting a traditional tone out of position 2 is going to result in a compromise where position 1 with gain won't be as full as I want compared to the neck. It's nothing my MXR M77 can't fix, though. Even without an OD, a crunchy and fairly thick rhythm tone that isn't brittle or shrill won't be a problem, however; it just won't be chunky. And while I don't believe it will sound too thin, it'll be on the lean side for hard rock and I definitely wouldn't use it to do metal. I have others that can do that.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

So back on the original topic and to reiterate: the OP is apparently used to identical pickups in the neck and bridge (CH57).

It seems sensible that he would find a HOTCH in the bridge to be a whole lot louder than a CH57 in the neck, despite it being comparable to a "well known to be a set that balances" even if that is the case for an extremely large group of people, and I'm not doubting it for one second.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I've played Epi's with HOTCH bridge and CH57 neck and have not experienced a difference as large as the OP is describing.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Is it possible that you have a different frame of reference, or are you also used to playing a guitar with identical vintage output bridge pickups (by Duncan standards) in both the bridge and neck?

I mean he could likely get by if it were a Custom Custom in the neck and a Custom 5 in the bridge based on what he's used to using. Is that something you see yourself doing for any extended period of time?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

A common problem with Epiphones is that one pickup will be either weak, intermittent, or silent all together. To fix it I just replace all the electronic components, because that's a whole lot easier than singling any one thing out. I also usually put the neck out of phase and put a treble bleed in while I'm at it.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

A common problem with Epiphones is that one pickup will be either weak

I'm not so sure this applies in this case, but I could easily be wrong. The first step should be to troubleshoot, rather than buy a bunch of cable, switches and pots and rewire the whole thing as he's being told.

To fix it I just replace all the electronic components, because that's a whole lot easier than singling any one thing out.

If electronic components mean pickups, that's probably what I would do, assuming the guitar felt good and played well. I wouldn't address the wiring, switches or pots until they failed or otherwise resulted in an obvious problem. I certainly wouldn't go through the trouble to change them out blindly, that's for sure.

however...

I'd like to avoid spending money on this guitar, I bought it as a backup and since I'm not very satisfied with it, I'll probably sell it at some point.

You didn't answer either of my questions:

are you [...] used to playing a guitar with identical vintage output bridge pickups (by Duncan standards) in both the bridge and neck?

if it were a Custom Custom in the neck and a Custom 5 in the bridge [...] Is that something you (can) see yourself doing for any extended period of time?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Hi Walter

If bridge on 5 is balanced with neck on 10, how was it before you took the covers off?

How did you remove the wax? Possibility of shorting a coil making the neck single?

how is the amp set? Edge of break up? Clean? What amp?

14k bridge to 8k neck isn't that bad/different in output levels IME. Bridge might drive the amp a little different, but not that significant in volume levels, at least not 5:10.

To me it sounds like something was damaged, or defective solder somewhere in the neck path.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I don't think of anything that I need right now.


An odd choice of words, to say the least... let's break it out. From the Cambridge Dictionary:

INFEST
Verb: infest, past tense: infested; past participle: infested; adjective: -infested

1.to live in or overrun to an unwanted degree or in a troublesome manner, especially as predatory animals or vermin do:
Sharks infested the coastline.
2.to be numerous in, as anything undesirable or troublesome:
the cares that infest the day.
3.Archaic. to harass.

So, by your own written word, what bothers you are the, and I quote, "professionals who are true experts in their fields", so much that you consider'em "predatory animals or vermin". You're such a nice fellow... but again, just take your medicines and and everything will be fine again.

Well, at least the handle you self chose to use doesn't hide your own nature, and the avatar you also self chose to illustrate your web character contains the word "Prozac", which definition by the FDA is "Prozac is an antidepressant. It is mainly used to treat major depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and panic disorder. That's what I call a major Freudian slip!

/Peter

Peter, are you that obtuse? Lol...

That was intentional, ever heard of 'play on words'? Oh I get it, you are European...different jokes for different folks.

Honestly your personal attack is lame, coming from someone with 15 years of guitar making and 25 years of sold-out tour playing top-40 covers.

And you actually think I am serious about my username? Prozac? It's a joke pal...a joke. Look it up....lol.

You ain't no Frank Falbo, you ain't no AlexR (his personal attack got taste). Thanks for the laugh...I am entertained.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Honestly your personal attack is lame, coming from someone with 15 years of guitar making and 25 years of sold-out tour playing top-40 covers.

And you actually think I am serious about my username? Prozac? It's a joke pal...a joke. Look it up....lol.

You ain't no Frank Falbo, you ain't no AlexR (his personal attack got taste). Thanks for the laugh...I am entertained.

I'm sorry, who are you?

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

You know what?

First: I haven't read, nor will I continue bother reading this useless train wreck any further.

While I truly believe that many members suffer myopia and are completely closed minded to alternate/creative points of view, I can no longer feel comfortable playing 666's advocate knowing that the 57CH is more of a bridge pickup rather than a neck pickup unless the magnets are not fully charged.

I'm still interested in Walter's findings.

 

[Discharged]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

That was intentional, ever heard of 'play on words'?

I love it when you get caught and try to backpedal.

And you actually think I am serious about my username?

You chose something that's significant to you. Freudian slip anyone...?

/Peter

 

[waltschwarzkopf]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Ok, guys. Getting back to the issue of the thread...

I measured the output jack directly with a multimeter and this is what I get:

Neck pickup Vol 10: 480kOhm
Neck pickup Vol 0: 7Ohm
Bridge pickup Vol 10: 480kOhm
Bridge pickup Vol 0: 4Ohm

This is wrong, right? My understanding is that at Vol10 the output DCR should be close to the pickup's DCR, let's say between 7-14 for this combo; and at Vol0, it should be 0. Nevertheless, I did encounter something similar on another Epiphone that seemed to work fine on all three positions, but with a lower volume. The multimeter and cable work FINE, as I've tested it with other guitars getting reasonable results.

I also tried to measure the output in mV, although I didn't know what to expect. So I looked up some pickups at Dimarzio (the only manufacturer I know that rates the output in mV) and I found an 8kOhm AlNiCo V with an output of ~200mV and a 14kOhm Ceramic with an output of ~430mV; I took these only as a reference. After measuring mine I got:

Bridge output: 15.7mV
Neck Output: 10.3mV

Again, this is way off the expected values, right? But is this 50% difference (5.4mV) the cause of why they are so unbalanced?

Here are some pictures of the control and switch cavity. I disconnected the white plug so the connections would be easier to see.







I measured continuity on the switch at all four poles and the three positions. None of the three "hot" ones go to the ground, which is good. And the bridge and neck go to the output only when the pickup is selected, and in the middle position, all three "hots" are connected. Good, right?

I tried measuring the resistance at the pickup cables and I get the same readings as before, but I guess that is because the pickups are still wired. I guess I would have to unsolder them and then measure each pickup to get the real DCR values, correct?

Looking forward to your comments.
Thanks a lot!

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I'm wondering whether your meter is up to snuff. The pickups are clearly connected and are creating output, albeit extremely weak if you're strumming something an open chord, so weak that I wouldn't rely on the values you're getting. It's almost as if it's measuring resistance with a high frequency AC signal which would diminish the effect of the pickup's inductive load.

Do either pickup hum, as in single coil-style hum? Can you compare the sound you get from your neck pickup by itself with a vintage output humbucker in the neck of another guitar, and then do the same with the bridge for reference?

 

[waltschwarzkopf]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I'm wondering whether your meter is up to snuff. The pickups are clearly connected and are creating output, albeit extremely weak if you're strumming something an open chord, so weak that I wouldn't rely on the values you're getting. It's almost as if it's measuring resistance with a high frequency AC signal which would diminish the effect of the pickup's inductive load.

Do either pickup hum, as in single coil-style hum? Can you compare the sound you get from your neck pickup by itself with a vintage output humbucker in the neck of another guitar, and then do the same with the bridge for reference?

I don't think the meter is faulty, but you never know. Just to be sure I set it to measure DCV and I got nothing, then I changed it to ACV and got those values.

I don't think they hum, but I will compare them with my Gibson LP. I lower the bridge PUP as far as it would go, I'll see if that makes a difference in sound.

EDIT

I just tried the same procedure with the same meter on a guitar that I modded myself, single humbucker in the bridge and only 1 volume. I got the following:

Vol10 = 14.83kOhm
Vol0 = 23.7Ohm
Power = 70-380mV

The power varies because I tried strumming and picking, both lightly and aggressively.

Therefore, the meter is fine.

I think the problem lies within the sh¡tty components that Epiphone uses, those pots are weird as hell. The tone pots are A/LOG and usually work and measure fine. However, the volume pots are B/LIN and on those only two of the lugs work. I know that because I once had to Epis and decided to make one all LOG and the other all LIN, for experimental purposes. The all LOG guitar worked wonderfully, but the all LIN couldn't regulate the tone, that is how I found out about the working lugs. I still have those pots and they are useless, unless you want them for for volume and only using the two working logs.

Anyways, back to the problem of the thread. I will try the guitar again and see if it hums and if lowering the pickup made the pickups sound evener. Otherwise, I'll just call this problem a "feature" and use it for clean/strumming NECK and crunch/picking BRIDGE.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Is it safe to assume your bridge pickup is behaving properly? I mean pickups aren't going to get louder with a bad connection. If it is working properly then your meter should be reading its resistance. What do you get when you measure the resistance of each pickup at its respective volume pot with the selector switch not in the middle position?

It is possible that they are only capacitively coupled to the output jack when selected, suggesting there is a connectivity problem. That would explain there being very low output and no affect on a DC resistance measurement. But it appeares to affect both pickups the same way suggesting the very same fault with each.

What is the quality of sound of the neck pickup? Is it producing a fair amount of bass like it's supposed to? If so then that rules out a capacitive-only connection.

What are you playing when measuring the AC output?

 

[waltschwarzkopf]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Is it safe to assume your bridge pickup is behaving properly? I mean pickups aren't going to get louder with a bad connection.

It is possible that they are only capacitively coupled to the output jack when selected, suggesting there is a connectivity problem. That would explain there being very low output and no affect on a DC resistance measurement. But it appeares to affect both pickups the same way suggesting the very same fault with each.

What is the quality of sound of the neck pickup? Is it producing a fair amount of bass like it's supposed to? If so then that rules out a capacitive-only connection.

What are you playing when measuring the AC output?

I tried again, playing as hard as I could, and in a similar manner of the other guitar and got max 60/70mV out ofthe neck/bridge. Now the difference is no longer 50%, because I lowered the bridge pickup, so may the volume is now even; the neck pickup is as high as posible, almost touching the strings when pressing the 22nd fret.

What really haunts me is not playing the guitar right before removing the covers, but I do not remember being such a big difference. And I agree that the problem with the DRC and output affects BOTH pickups, while the volume is an issue of only the neck.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

I added a couple lines to my reply, specifically, what do you get when measuring the DC resistance of each pickup at its volume control?

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Re: Linear vs audio taper for the volume controls. Some guys really like them because they want more control at the top end of the pot. I like them for '50s wiring because they smooth out the response.

This doesn't mean your Epiphone controls aren't garbage, though. Your current ones could easily be malfunctioning as well. Measuring the DCR for each pickup at the control would go a long way in confirming it.

 

[waltschwarzkopf]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

Re: Linear vs audio taper for the volume controls. Some guys really like them because they want more control at the top end of the pot. I like them for '50s wiring because they smooth out the response.

This doesn't mean your Epiphone controls aren't garbage, though. Your current ones could easily be malfunctioning as well. Measuring the DCR for each pickup at the control would go a long way in confirming it.

Yeah, that's what I changed them. I realized that at home where I regulate "gain" with the vol pot, I prefer LOG. Whereas at the studio where I use the vol to regulate "volume" I prefer LIN.

Anyways, I measured the pickups again, and got this:


Neck pickup Vol 10 at the jack: 421kOhm
Neck pickup Vol 10 at the pot: 468.7kOhm
Bridge pickup Vol 10 at the jack: 439kOhm
Bridge pickup Vol 10 at the pot: 488.5kOhm

For some reason, these values are not exactly the same as the ones posted above. I realized that when measuring at the jack the DCR fluctuates a lot and the values are shown now are a few seconds after I allowed it to stabilize. On the other hand, the DCR at the pot stabilizes instantly.

 

[gregory]

Re: Pickups way too unbalanced!

That suggests both pickups were either damaged when removing the covers or were faulty to begin with.