Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

AlexR said:
I'm not sure how many assumptions that are present in the minds of strangers......but it is a fairly well known fact through many tests that (good) glue joins are way stronger than the original wood grain. Its fair to say any repairer would know it, and typically this sort of info is almost universally relayed onto clients who would naturally worry about whether any repair would hold. So to assume people are thinking that the tone shift is merely a perceptive compensation is more likely false than valid.

The issue many thinking people would have with the 'better tone after a break' theory, is that it typically is weeks to months between break and returned repair.....especially if nitro touchup is needed. As many people seem to find tonal variance between a rig from one day to another (not only ears and perception, but environmental conditions are guaranteed variables), trying to remember a guitar from so long ago and compare it to now, where it has most likely needed/had a full setup and fretdress plus fresh strings is a long bow to draw.
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This is very much what I believe about this.

Everytime I change strings I notice great improvement in my guitar tone after new string "zing" has worn off.

Just when people do have their guiters modifed/repaired they are not likely to count the difference in tone for just a new set of strings...
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

I had the opposite experience.

My #1 LP used to be a lively, gorgeous honeyburst Standard-80 that fell off its stand when one of the roadies pulled on a mic cable that was underneath it. Landed face first right on the nut and the break was right at the weak spot of course. My luthier at the time was Tom Doyle (this was '82, he was still working with Les). Tom did a nice solid repair with two slots & rabbets, and refinished the back of the headstock stinger-style. It looked great but the guitar never had quite the same woody voice afterwards. The tone was harder and the pick attack felt a little more aggressive- those guitars have the Shaw PAFs, which are bright pickups to begin with. Importantly for me, while its unplugged sustain was just as good, the guitar was less lively at volume.

Now I don't discount the fact that we can think we hear a change when the only difference is that time has passed. And I do believe in confirmation bias- if you're expecting a change you're likely to find it. That's human nature. But I do think that in the case of headstock repairs there's likely to be a genuine difference. At the time I was gigging five and six nights a week using the same rig and the same guitars, and I got to know them pretty intimately. While nuances of tone can and do change from day to day, the overall feel of a guitar doesn't vary as much.

In general I think the differences after these repairs are mostly due to rigidity, and possibly also a bit of extra mass from glue and/or extra wood if any. I can see how a tone change (however slight) might be welcomed by some players who know their instruments well, and perhaps not welcomed by others. Also it isn't hard to imagine that some extra stiffness up top could even make certain guitars sustain better.

Still, I definitely don't see it as a positive thing for every Les Paul and every player across the board. Wouldn't surprise me if these differences were better appreciated by those who like brighter tone and those who might prefer stiffer necks in general. Some guys really love maple neck LPs. Myself, I like the warmer voice and slightly elastic feel of mahogany. Always have.

Anyway, for me the repair wasn't an improvement and I sold the guitar. Now I half wish I'd kept it- that Standard-80 was really pretty. Still, I like 'em lively and every time I picked it up I couldn't help missing the way it had been. So I gigged my KM instead for a couple of months until getting a Guitar Trader pre-Historic that's super lively and remains my favorite LP to this day. I quit bringing that one to shows a long time ago though.
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

While I have absolutely no problem whatsoever owning and playing a Gibson with a properly repaired headstock break, the idea that there are sonic differences between the before and after of the repair, that are *due to* the repair, are total nonsense to me. Even the theory is weak IMO, but then you have the fact that it is *literally impossible* to scientifically test it in a way that provides a solid conclusion. As such, I consider such statements to be completely anecdotal. If you want to believe it...fine. But don't tell me to!

That said, a well glued wood joint is indeed often stronger than a single piece of wood. But that's a structural issue, not a tonal one.
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

A luthier in Tampa (1980's) once told me that the Charvel scarf joint is part of what makes those guitars sound so good... When you think about it, would a scarf joint not have a similar effect as repairing a neck? I prefer the look of the Strat headstock Charvel's, but I've always insisted that the pointed headstock models sound better.
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

For what it's worth, my EPI LP Custom, which had the neck shattered in several places, is one of my best sounding guitars. However, I wasn't the original owner, so I don't know what it sounded like before, and I immediately installed a PATB-1 set in it. Also, it was repaired by one of the best luthiers in the country. (IMHO)
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

ItsaBass said:
"...the idea that there are sonic differences between the before and after of the repair, that are *due to* the repair, are total nonsense to me.
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So, everyone who has experienced this particular post-repair change (including Michael Schenker) are all wrong... Got it!

ItsaBass said:
"...it is *literally impossible* to scientifically test it in a way that provides a solid conclusion.
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For your own knowledge and edification, the process of mapping the resonating effect of solid objects has existed longer than you have likely been alive.

You can map resonating effect changes by using the following components... You will need a mixer and computer inputs as well.
http://www.pcb.com/Products/model/086c03
http://www.pcb.com/Products/model/352B
http://www.pcb.com/products/model/480e09

ItsaBass said:
"As such, I consider such statements to be completely anecdotal. If you want to believe it...fine. But don't tell me to!"
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The only thing anecdotal here, are your philosophical comments.

ItsaBass said:
That said, a well glued wood joint is indeed often stronger than a single piece of wood. But that's a structural issue, not a tonal one.
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Obviously.
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

I've never had a broken neck (and I've had a few Gibsons fall off their perch in my 35 years of playing)... knock on ebony (not Richlite)...

That being said, I would see no reason not to believe that a properly repaired neck could sound better.

I am, of course, of the strong opinion that the neck (and fretboard) is the main source of the guitar's
natural tone (just don't ask me for percentages, cuz Homie don't play that).

And of course, I have no proof or evidence of my statements
(usually I do, and I provide them willingly, as we all know :lol: I'm a straight shooter).

Only opinion due to complete lack of experience having a broken neck repaired.
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

^ Yes, tone of something will be based on structure.......density and shape. You only have to look at tuning forks made all out of the same material to see that physical properties determine the resonant frequency.
So adding in materials that change the overall density, or the stiffness of the final item can indeed change how the final product will sound/resonate. Glue joins will be one of those things that add in a different structure to the overall.....and any difference could well make for a shift.

It will be impossible to make any predictions, and it could be equally true that people have not seen any shift and have seen shift in the guitar's tone even with many guitars with such a repair.

But as physics supports the possibility of a tone shift, I find it silly to discount the theory either way. Absolutes are for those lacking in critical thinking.
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

I can understand the psychology of this. (And the physics.) So, you have an axe you love. Something happens to it. You think it's destroyed. I good luthier fixes it. But, of course, he/she can't just patch it back together. Now, they have to repair the nut, adjust the truss rod, and maybe do a fret level. Now you have an axe that's "set-up", where maybe it wasn't before. Maybe it's as simple as that. :dunno:
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

Yeah Michael Schenker swears his V's all sounded better after headstock repairs
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

Here's what I think... A repair at the neck decreases the resonating effect by acting as reflector, or dampener. Resonance decreased = attack and sustain are improved. I always laugh when I hear neophytes discussing acoustics. "You'll love this guitar... It resonates like crazy!" :smack:
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

67Mopar said:
Here's what I think... A repair at the neck decreases the resonating effect by acting as reflector, or dampener. Resonance decreased = attack and sustain are improved. I always laugh when I hear neophytes discussing acoustics. "You'll love this guitar... It resonates like crazy!" :smack:
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Yea, but it also makes guitars more lively and warmer sounding. That's why I like thin bodied SG's over LP.

Often more resonating strats are the better sounding ones as well.
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

Jacew said:
Yea, but it also makes guitars more lively and warmer sounding. That's why I like thin bodied SG's over LP.

Often more resonating strats are the better sounding ones as well.
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Yeah, I suppose there's a fine balance there. Gibson added the maple top to help quell resonating effect. Each has there place, of course. For "liquid" lead tones, I always go with my Firebird V. For chunky attack and fat rhythm, I go with my LP Custom.

I've been playing since '78, and I've never owned an SG! I've been looking at them for the several days now, but I want one with P9O's and a thicker neck than what most SG's have. It's either an SG or a PRS McCarty. I'm actually leaning more toward the McCarty, but the McCarty has a maple top. I'm thinking maple may not be the way to go with P9O's?
 
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Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

I have three Gibsons with repaired headstock breaks. Two are Les Paul Supremes in Root Beer and HCSB. Both were brand new, damaged in shipping. The tech at Guitar Center did adequate repair, though no effort was done to improve the cosmetics. I bought both guitars from Guitar Center for pennies on the dollar. Tuning stability is excellent in both guitars, as is sustain.

My Vintage Sunburst ES-335 is a 2012 model that fell off a stand at the Seattle Cuitar Center. Again, repaired by their tech, with no real thought to cosmetics. Didn't play right and it had a buzz. Took 30 seconds to figure out why, and I kept it to myself. I made them a low, but resonable offer and again got if for pennies on the dollar. A quick trip to my luthier to have him adjust the nut action, file the bridge saddles to match the fingerboard radius, AND firmly reseat one of the saddle's intonation screwheads back into the ABR-1...THAT'S what the major problem was with the buzz and the playability.

And of my three 335s, it is my favorite. There's really something special about this one. I really like the neck. Can't say it sounds noticeably better than the others, but it is sweet.

All three have appropriate sustain and resonance for their body types. They are great guitars, and I'm lucky to have found them.

I would not hesitate to buy another Gibson with a headstock break, as long as the faceplate is not damaged. A break through the faceplate is cosmetically unacceptable to me, and expensive to repair. My old 1975 Martin D-28 fell and snapped the headstock clean off. I elected for a neck replacement rather than repair, ruining the value of a vintage guitar, but for a number of reasons it was the best choice to make.

I won't say a broken headstock makes a guitar better, but a quality repair isn't a tone killer or a deal breaker for me.

Bill
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

67Mopar said:
Here's what I think... A repair at the neck decreases the resonating effect by acting as reflector, or dampener. Resonance decreased = attack and sustain are improved. I always laugh when I hear neophytes discussing acoustics. "You'll love this guitar... It resonates like crazy!" :smack:
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Well, I got to tell you, about the first thing I do when I pick up an acoustic guitar is to strum the open strings a feel the top of the headstock for vibrations or resonance. I look for the ones that resonate like crazy, including throughout the top. Now all of my Martin dreads do this, and I would say that they also have fine sustain and excellent tone.

And I judge a Les Paul the same way, looking for a balance of dynamics, openness, and resonance. Though I will admit some players prefer heavier Pauls with reduced resonance, longer sustain and less dynamics.

This all seems contrary to your statement. Pehaps I misunderstood.

Bill
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

^Agreed. The thing is, the string's energy has to go somewhere. If your body won't resonate that probably means the bridge, or some other component is dampening your string's vibration before it even gets to the body; which is bad for sustain and volume.
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

ICTGoober said:
In fact, Loverboy guitarist Paul Dean used to claim that some of his guitars with broken necks sounded better after repairs were made, and he experimented by breaking the necks of some of his guitars and repairing them. So... when Hondo marketed a Paul Dean model (actually a decent guitar, and quite rare), Paul asked Hondo to rout slots in the maple shaft of the neck running alongside the truss rod creating the first "chambered" neck way back in the 80's!



So, anyway - food for thought.
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Hondo Paul Dean has a hideous headstock....

https://reverb.com/item/4683010-1983-hondo-paul-dean-iii-signature-black-and-red-zebra

Id like to get a Kramer Paul Dean model!
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

Again, I think there's a balance. I'll say this... I can definitely hear a difference between a poly coated instrument vs nitro. I once stripped the poly off of an '85 San Dimas Charvel. Crazy, I know, but the result was nothing short of phenomenal! I then sealed the body and neck using boiled linseed oil. That was the best playing, best sounding guitar I've ever owned. I never bothered trying to duplicate it, as nothing would have equaled it.
 
Re: Played a LP Standard with a repaired neck today... Wow!

When Ed Roman was alive he used to break on purpose head-stocks of Gibson guitars and glue them back together and he felt it was much stronger than before it was broken.



;>)/
 
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