PLEK it!

W

WyrmCracker

New member
I went to guitar center today and could barely play anything they had there. THe action on the floor guitars was so high!

I have had a couple guitars plekked, and let me tell you, it is a thing of beauty.

I measured the action and with minimal fret buzz on the low-E string, the action is 1.6-1.7mm. Perhaps a bit lower on the high-E string.

I have some guitars that were leveled and crowned by hand, and the action is close, but not quite as low or consistent.

This is the best $200 you will spend on a guitar.
 
Re: PLEK it!

It's a great tool, but you shouldn't assume that the fret dresses you previously had done by hand should reflect the full potential of that traditional methods.

You can find some traditional fret dresses (when done in the right hands) better than Pleked ones, and some Pleked ones better than traditional.

Here's a current topic from another thread - I posted my views in a bit more detail down in post #22.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech/194018-plek-machines-threat.html
 
Re: PLEK it!

Well I don't necessarily think it's a PLEK issue, as compared to a properly setup guitar.

When I grew up in the 80's, every guitar that came into the store (Sam Ash) received a setup before the guitar hit the floor. This was at the height of shredders, so the demand for high performance guitars was there.

Then stores decided to cut costs and stop the setups, and put every guitar on the floor the way they came from the factory- straight out of the box.

As a result I too find most guitars unplayable in a store like Guitar Center. Even "shredder" guitars like Charvel have high action.

Now I'm not saying PLEK is useless, PLEK is like having a good setup on a broken in guitar- but I haven't played a new guitar in years, unless it was used, that I felt was worth buying due to its poor playability
 
Re: PLEK it!

PLEK: machine that can make a luthier redundant.

Good luthier vs. PLEK: good luthier wins every time. It's the difference between GOOD and GREAT. If you can't feel the difference, then you don't need GREAT.
 
Re: PLEK it!

David Collins said:
It's a great tool, but you shouldn't assume that the fret dresses you previously had done by hand should reflect the full potential of that traditional methods.

You can find some traditional fret dresses (when done in the right hands) better than Pleked ones, and some Pleked ones better than traditional.

Here's a current topic from another thread - I posted my views in a bit more detail down in post #22.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech/194018-plek-machines-threat.html
Click to expand...

Wonderful post over there David :beerchug:

To sum up what I´ve been saying about PLEK since 1999:

A PLEK Machine in and of itself = Useless POS that does nothing but stand around and collect dust

A PLEK machine with a hack at the controls = the last place I would want my guitar to be.

A PLEK machine run by an experienced craftsman that understands both fretjobs and his machine like no other = Great, consistent fretjobs with significantly less manual labor.

Just like every tool, if it´s smarter than it´s operator, the results will be crap. Likewise a really good operator can get the job done just as well with cheaper tools ;)
 
Re: PLEK it!

You can get a great job from a traditional luthier, but in the end it will never match the PLEK under all circumstances.

Not all necks have the same bow. Some necks are not perfect. Removing microscopic amounts of fret material to create the perfect profile for any given neck is where the PLEK shines.

So yeah, on a top quality instrument with a perfect neck, a luthier will do a **** fine job. On less then perfect necks, or necks with less fret material, the PLEK machine wins. Every time.

Ive had top quality luthier jobs and had no problem with them. Until I realized what a proper PLEK job can do. Its just _that_ much better.

Of course you are going to say that I didnt have a proper luther fret level in my 20 years of playing. yadda yadda

Plek machines are very expensive and there are only a handful in the country so I can understand the backlash.
 
Re: PLEK it!

The only thing that often bugs me about these Plek discussions is the common misconception among many that automated or computer controlled tooling such as this can achieve some higher level of precision than can be found with hand tools.

I can say with confidence that the tolerances I can achieve by hand are as good over the 18" length of the board as a well-run Plek machine can, and tighter over short, fret to fret tolerances.

While many people not familiar with my techniques may find that hard to believe, an experienced machinists response would be "well duh, of course".

If you level frets with a file glued to a block, then crown them with a diamond file and polish them out with sandpaper (which is what most shops probably still do), no, you're not going to get precision of this level. My methods are much more involved than that, more akin to plate lapping than grinding with a file, and there are many ways to precisely control the curvature of the plane on different sections while doing this.

There is no "backlash" from me, as I made clear in the post I linked to that I couldn't care if I never saw another fret dress again. The only knee-jerk reaction I tend to have is that of misconceptions about tolerances achievable by CNC vs by hand. The 18"x24" surface plate that I true and calibrate my leveling tools on is trued to within 25 millionths of an inch, by hand, because there is simply no way that the most precise CNC could achieve those tolerances.

I'm not saying that my fret tolerances are within .000025" as the surface plate is, but over short distances they are certainly better than the .0005" the Plek advertises as it's tolerances. To be fair, most good Plek fret levels will have results below that range as well, though in practice by the time we creep below the .0005"-.00025" range, the differences are largely abstract in the world of fretboards.

So though you may not be aware of them, and they may not be terribly intuitive, there are ways to control precision in more traditional fret dressing which can match or even exceed the abilities of a Plek machine. There are also factors which can be weighed in on from experience to modify a form based on other subtle variables in neck stiffness, playing style, etc, when done by a skilled hand than can easily be factored in to a Plek's programming. In practical terms I would say that a Plek can deliver as good a job as a skilled hand leveling, and indeed better than fret dresses from most shops. In terms of precision approaching a more abstract level (effects rarely realized within the context of a fretboard), hand lapping can most certainly deliver greater precision when carried out skillfully and attentively.
 
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Re: PLEK it!

David Collins said:
The only thing that often bugs me about these Plek discussions is the common misconception among many that automated or computer controlled tooling such as this can achieve some higher level of precision than can be found with hand tools.

I can say with confidence that the tolerances I can achieve by hand are as good over the 18" length of the board as a well-run Plek machine can, and tighter over short, fret to fret tolerances.

While many people not familiar with my techniques may find that hard to believe, an experienced machinists response would be "well duh, of course".

If you level frets with a file glued to a block, then crown them with a diamond file and polish them out with sandpaper (which is what most shops probably still do), no, you're not going to get precision of this level. My methods are much more involved than that, more akin to plate lapping than grinding with a file, and there are many ways to precisely control the curvature of the plane on different sections while doing this.

There is no "backlash" from me, as I made clear in the post I linked to that I couldn't care if I never saw another fret dress again. The only knee-jerk reaction I tend to have is that of misconceptions about tolerances achievable by CNC vs by hand. The 18"x24" surface plate that I true and calibrate my leveling tools on is trued to within 25 millionths of an inch, by hand, because there is simply no way that the most precise CNC could achieve those tolerances.

I'm not saying that my fret tolerances are within .000025" as the surface plate is, but over short distances they are certainly better than the .0005" the Plek advertises as it's tolerances. To be fair, most good Plek fret levels will have results below that range as well, though in practice by the time we creep below the .0005"-.00025" range, the differences are largely abstract in the world of fretboards.

So though you may not be aware of them, and they may not be terribly intuitive, there are ways to control precision in more traditional fret dressing which can match or even exceed the abilities of a Plek machine. There are also factors which can be weighed in on from experience to modify a form based on other subtle variables in neck stiffness, playing style, etc, when done by a skilled hand than can easily be factored in to a Plek's programming. In practical terms I would say that a Plek can deliver as good a job as a skilled hand leveling, and indeed better than fret dresses from most shops. In terms of precision approaching a more abstract level (effects rarely realized within the context of a fretboard), hand lapping can most certainly deliver greater precision when carried out skillfully and attentively.
Click to expand...

THe problem that you ultimately have is that you are doing the fret work while the guitar is not under tension. You would have to string it up, remove strings, over and over to get the exact precision. I'm pretty sure that labor intensive of a job, done by hand will cost much more than a plek job.

The reality is that an average Joe's chances of finding a tech to do a hand job _properly_ is going to be alot less than sending it to a plek technician. Not saying its impossible, just not likely.

The plek machine does an accurate scan of the neck and can duplicate fret profiles. A hand job cant easily deal with problem neck profiles. The plek machine can control height and angle of grind. Calculates the exact amount to remove from every fret to gain the perfect profile.

I have had guitars refretted that could have had one or two more plek jobs, had I know about PLEK (or if it existed) in the 90s.

It really just doesnt make sense to try to find a tech to do it by hand when 99% of the time a plek machine will do a better job.

So yeah, given 12 hours, the right tools and a neck that does not have any problems, you can probably get it as playable as an average plek job.

All my plekked guitars are 1.6-1.7mm at the 12th fret. Action is consistent across the neck. No buzzing unless digging in. That just doesnt happen with hand tools.

I think the thing you are REALLY missing not having a PLEK machine is the accurate scan under tension. Sure you can work the tools accurately enough, but what is telling you EXACTLY how much to remove from each fret, what angle to grind (if any), etc. You just dont have the scan under tension, you just dont have enough information to do as good a job, even if your hands are golden.
 
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Re: PLEK it!

David Collins said:
While many people not familiar with my techniques may find that hard to believe, an experienced machinists response would be "well duh, of course".

.
Click to expand...

the question i have is how do you get the NECK in the right place after the strings come off?

other than that, well duh, you're right..
 
Re: PLEK it!

Hey, I'm no luthier, not even a tech, I can only just perform ordinary setups myself but aren't jigs (or sth) that emulate string tension on a neck a standard tools for even the most basic of guitar techs?
 
Re: PLEK it!

WyrmCracker said:
THe problem that you ultimately have is that you are doing the fret work while the guitar is not under tension. You would have to string it up, remove strings, over and over to get the exact precision. I'm pretty sure that labor intensive of a job, done by hand will cost much more than a plek job.
Click to expand...

Nope, we use what´s called a Neck Jig. It keeps the neck in the exact position it has under string tension.

Why have the tension there and remove it then have to calculate, forcing an inherent inaccuracy into the equation, when you can just remove the strings and start work. ;)

...
A hand job cant easily deal with problem neck profiles.
Click to expand...

But it´s still a great way to start the day :naughty::laugh2:

Define "Problem profile" please. Humps? Dips? High frets? Low frets? Warps? Twists? Excessive relief? Backbowing? Compression? Or something radically new that we didn´t figure out how to cure centuries ago? Are modern necks tying themselves into knots under tension? Are they suddenly getting LONGER under string tension? :eek13:

The plek machine can control height and angle of grind. Calculates the exact amount to remove from every fret to gain the perfect profile.
Click to expand...

So can a luthier. And the reason a PLEK has to calculate it is because it isn´t capable of doing it by eye, but by what is essentially at it´s core superhyperaccurate NASA-Quality GUESSWORK. I´m not saying that guesswork can´t be accurate, again, NASA has based their entire existence on it. But Luthiers don´t have to guess, they can see it plainly in front of their nose.

So yeah, given 12 hours, the right tools and a neck that does not have any problems, you can probably get it as playable as an average plek job.
Click to expand...

I´ve planed and refretted problematic necks much faster than this....

All my plekked guitars are 1.6-1.7mm at the 12th fret. Action is consistent across the neck. No buzzing unless digging in. That just doesnt happen with hand tools.
Click to expand...

I do my fretjobs myself, full refrets including sometimes heavy planing in well under 8 hours, and my personal actions are verifiably 1.2mm or lower @ the 12th when fretted at the 1st, and could possibly go down to 1mm or lower if I didn´t whack the strings like a maniac. And I wouldn´t consider my fretjobs first class by any standards, there are guys out there doing amazing fretwork.

And Carvin regularly advertises (or at least used to) their action at the 12th fret of being 1/16" or lower. That´s 1.58mm. They never had and still don´t have a PLEK machine.

TBH 1.6-1.7mm is the point where I can´t live with it anymore and dress the frets. If this thing is still supposed to be the be all and end all of fretwork (which it´s been trying to prove for almost 15 years), it´s got a long way to go if that´s the best it can do ;)

I think the thing you are REALLY missing not having a PLEK machine is the accurate scan under tension.
Click to expand...

We don´t scan under tension per se, but unlike a PLEK machine we do the work itself under precisely simulated tension. Again, Neck Jig.

Sure you can work the tools accurately enough, but what is telling you EXACTLY how much to remove from each fret, what angle to grind (if any), etc.
Click to expand...

A PLEK uses math to estimate this as precisely as possible. We use light to see it as precisely as possible while it happens, allowing us to correct anything that may arise as it occurs.

Think about it, the ancient Egyptians were able to sculpt stones to within a hundredth of an inch, any semi trained metalworker can hand grind and polish surfaces to within a thousandth of a mm (1/25000th") after minimal practice. Why in your opinion should a luthier be a slobbering ape that can´t reach the same degree of precision with the same basic tools?

Using their age old methods as well as some new tricks, it´s no feat to achieve the same amount of accuracy. By hand.
...
 
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Re: PLEK it!

...
You just dont have the scan under tension, you just dont have enough information to do as good a job, even if your hands are golden.
Click to expand...

You have the same amount of information and more, you just don´t have it in the form of calculations, formulas and programs that you can show some number-fixated pencil pusher. YOu have it in the form of experience, customer wishes, and technique.

Give me a neck Jig, a straight and true bastard file cut into 2 pieces, a straightedge trued to at least 1/1000th of a mm, a triangular file, tape, sandpaper, steel wool and polish and I´ll take the PLEK challenge any day of the week.

No lasers. No big computer programs. No huge electric bill. just 2 hands, 20 years, and some time. I don´t know how fast a PLEK does fret dresses, nor do I care because it´s not about time, it´s about quality.

I will always see PLEK´s main application as an industrial one, I see it as the embodiment of the Fender Way as applied to fretwork. Primarily because you can have an untrained worker ready to go much faster than if you would have him refret necks by hand.

But unlike the person doing it by hand, all he will ever learn to do is push the same buttons. He will never learn all of the intricacies, and will always be limited by the software.

And trained workers with a passion are like viruses, they´re always ahead of the next thing that´s supposed to kill them ;)

:beerchug:
 
Re: PLEK it!

You keep saying GUESS and ESTIMATE. I get a printout that shows the original profiles and the new proflie. The guitars come back with the exact profile I specify.

Once youve had a supposely great luthier come back with marginal work you realize that 99% of the time a plek is going to be better.

Yes I have more faith that an automated machine will produce better work than a luthier -- who is not always motivated to give 100%. Time constraits etc.

I still debate whether you can do better by hand. I dont even think its debateable that the PLEK will do a better job than 99% of the work luthiers turn for their "average" cutomers cheap instruments.
 
Re: PLEK it!

I would advise people to avoid being seduced by the often false sense of assured accuracy offered by quantification. Just because a tool or system is graduated in .01mm increments, should in no way suggest that it consistently delivers accuracy to that degree.

For one example, the Plek system breaks a cardinal rule of precision machining, in that it uses the same rails, bearings, lead screws and gauge/readout system to reference, cut, and check. Any wear, lash, flex, etc, that exists in this system therefore cannot be observed or corrected for. There's nothing other than the precision of the original construction, and faith that there will be no appreciable wear or deflection in the system (very presumptuous ideals) to keep the results well referenced or in check.

You can't mark a sheet of plywood with a straight edge, cut along that line, then check it with the same straight edge and declare it as perfectly straight. You are relying entirely on the accuracy of that individual tool, and that it has remained perfect since it's last truing or calibration. The leveling methods I use for fret work are much closer to the original techniques that would have been used to true up the tools, that were used to make the tools, that were used to make the parts, that were used to make the Plek, which was used to level your frets. The further you get from the source of initial calibration, the more room for error is allowed.

Consider this admittedly simplified scenario. If you have three parallel lines that you want to make perfectly level with another, which of these methods would be more likely to yield greater precision? Chuck the plate with three points up on a mill, mill the first line, raise the cutter head, adjust the table to the next line, lower the cutter head to the same Z-axis reading, cut the next line, raise the cutter, repeat. Or you can take a precisely lapped plate, blue the three lines, and proceed to lap level the plates with a slurry or lapping film.

The latter method (if done properly) is indisputably more precise, and is very similar to the method I use for fret leveling. I use some files for aggressive leveling on problem areas, but the final leveling is done with bars which I regularly inspect and true when necessary. I will typically lap the surface of the frets in at least 3 stages, often more, each stage refined in grit and pressure, re-crowning between each step to insure I am working on equal surface area for each fret. The first stages may be with files or with a high quality sandpaper adhered to the leveling bars, but the final check is done using a 30 micron precision leveling film, after which no additional crowning is needed and I go directly to polishing. Pressure and direction are of course critical as well.

CNC systems like the Plek have much, much more room for inconsistencies than most people would assume. Even if you have a nice Hardinge, Bridgeport, or Clausing mill, if it's been used six months since the table was properly trued and set up, the level precision that was there originally will have measurably decreased, you will have different degrees of slop in the center of the table than at the ends, etc. And even then, those machines will have begun with a greater precision than a rail-type CNC like the Plek.

My procedures have developed over many years and with an obsession for well controlled precision, though to be honest, I can get pretty darn close with a well-chosen bastard file and three-corner file.

The polishing procedure brings us to yet another point. The Plek doesn't polish, and frets come off the tool with courser tool markings than my final level leaves me with. This leaves a lot more room for errors to be created in the polishing process after it leaves the machine. In addition to my finishing grit being higher, I have polishing procedure and system I've developed (hundreds of dollars in tooling for polishing alone) which even further eliminates room for error in this final stage.

There are plenty of other points of seemingly insignificant minutia that the Plek itself is incapable of noticing (though a good operator can). I'm not going in to ways of simulating string tension, but I can assure you I've done my work here as well, from neck jig systems (including modifications to apply force parallel rather than perpendicular to the neck) to bench top methods that can be just as reliable in the right hands.

I did recently hear back about a new guitar I had fretted a while ago (I do final assembly and fret work for a few small builders) which the owner had checked on a Plek in Nashville, and it came out as no improvements to be made. I've seen some Plek jobs on the other hand, that did not pass my criteria for ideal. To be fair though, given the shops that those Plek jobs were done at, they should not be taken to reflect the real potential of the machine.
 
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Re: PLEK it!

Everyone raves about their plekked guitars. You seem bent upon showing how inaccurate they _potentially_ are, but play a plekked guitar and you will get it.

When a plekked guitar is not exceptional, it is usually a result of climate change or warping over time. I dont advocate getting a guitar plekked until it is a few years old.

ANyway, have fun doing your guitars by hand. I hope this helped get the word out about plek.
 
Re: PLEK it!

Cheese and rice, I'm not bent on Plek bashing by any means. I've played and worked on lots of Pleked guitars, and though most of them are great, the best have them have never been any better than the fret work I do. I've tried to make it clear as possible that I think they are a fantastic tool, and when operated by someone who knows how to inspect and setup up the guitar properly with the machine, they deliver fantastic results.

I'm just saying, that it is a tool, and like any tool it has room where errors can occur both in limitations of the machine, and judgement on part of the operator in preparing and setting up the object to be machined.

I'm not saying that you tried to portray it as such, but many seem to think of this tool as shrouded in a cloak of infallibility, or believe that it is capable of achieving results not reasonably attainable by hand. Both of these ideas are patently false, and that's all I'm trying to point out.

It's a brilliant idea, it's a great tool, it's not infallible, but it can deliver perfect results when used properly, which are not any better than the best results that can be achieved by other means.

When you take your guitar in to be worked on, trust the tech, not their tools.
 
Re: PLEK it!

WyrmCracker said:
Everyone raves about their plekked guitars. You seem bent upon showing how inaccurate they _potentially_ are, but play a plekked guitar and you will get it.

When a plekked guitar is not exceptional, it is usually a result of climate change or warping over time. I dont advocate getting a guitar plekked until it is a few years old.

ANyway, have fun doing your guitars by hand. I hope this helped get the word out about plek.
Click to expand...

Why are you taking others' statements so personally? Someone who does that usually has an agenda.

- Keith
 
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