Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

BluesDisciple

BluesDisciple

New member
I'm wanting more presence, volume, and complexity from my Les Paul. I have in mind a modern wiring schematic with Luxe PIO caps, and if that doesn't work, a 50's schematic will be used.

Before I heat up my soldering iron and rework a perfectly good 2010 Traditional, is there really a difference changing from stock
pots/caps to CTS and PIO caps? In the end, was it worth it? Or could you have got the tone you found through less drastic measures? I really don't like to mod guitars unless I can't find whatever is lacking tone wise.

Your experience and results, please.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

I've not read anything, nor heard any definitive difference between cap and pot brands. Of course if you change the values (300k to 500k for volume pot) then there will be a change.

What I have heard (and many others too) is the 50's wiring, and this will give you the tonal clarity improvement you want.

edit - you won't get more volume from any upgrade....do you mean more drive?
 
Last edited:
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

As far as i know is the quality of the recent pots in Gibson are quite good. For the Gibson RI Series guitar i can say that the quality of the parts improved in 2009. I would first check that. The lespaulforum or mylespaulforum forumites can help you out on the questions what make, quality and taper of the pots. Then i would decide on a swap.
My 2007 R8 has a crap of pots: 2 are noisy even after treats with tuner spray.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

BluesDisciple said:
I'm wanting more presence, volume, and complexity from my Les Paul.
Click to expand...

Well, the best place to start is the guitar itself.

How does it sound unplugged? Does it resonate? Does it vibrate from head to bridge when played in a silent room? Does it sound even in the whole fingerboard or does it have "dead spots"?

Once you've answered all those questions, you can initiate Phase Two: WHY?

HTH,
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

You'll get more presence/treble by increasing the value of your pots from 300k to 500k.

Depending upon the value of your caps already, decreasing them from .047 (or .022, whatever you have in there) to .022, .015 or even .010 will give more presence and highs especially when you roll down the tone. You really won't hear much difference between the different types of caps...some may say you will, most will say you won't (I don't hear any difference at all, but I use orange drops because they are good quality middle of the road).

The 50's wiring may give you more clarity but nothing you'll actually notice.

The only way you'll get more volume/output or complexity is by changing the pups.
 
The guitar does resonate, but it seems to have a mute or muffle over the electrified sound that isn't there acoustically. The Les Paul is more lively acoustically than plugged in. So, I began thinking 1) p/u changes, then I thought 2) nah, it's got to be the electronics. Which admittedly I am not impressed with what Gibson installed. Now, it's occurred to me that it could be as simple as the 3) pickup height or a combination of 2) and 3). Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but I figured that it was worth a second thought before I start by rewiring the switch in braided shield 22AWG.

Is there anything I haven't thought of? Another thing: will modern wiring help me to my goal of increased output (gain?) or do I need to use the 50's wiring?
 
Last edited:
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

BluesDisciple said:
The guitar does resonate, but it seems to have a mute or muffle over the electrified sound that isn't there acoustically. The Les Paul is more lively acoustically than plugged in. So, I began thinking 1) p/u changes, then I thought 2) nah, it's got to be the electronics. Which admittedly I am not impressed with what Gibson installed. Now, it's occurred to me that it could be as simple as the pickup height or a combination of 2) and 3). Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but I figured that it was worth a second thought before I start by rewiring the switch in braided shield 22AWG.

Is there anything I haven't thought of? Another thing: will modern wiring help me to my goal of increased output (gain?) or do I need to use the 50's wiring?
Click to expand...

I'd go for the whole enchilada.

Good 550K audio taper CTS pots, Switchcraft toggle and jack, .022 Sprague Vitamin Q PIO caps and the whole thing wired with vintage braided cable and independent '50s wiring mod.

THEN you can set your p'ups up aiming to hit the "sweet spot".

At this point use the tone controls to adjust the desired brightness of each p'up.

DONE! You've got yourself the best instrument that guitar can ever be.

BTW, what p'ups does that instrument have?

HTH,
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

BluesDisciple said:
I'm wanting more presence, volume, and complexity from my Les Paul. I have in mind a modern wiring schematic with Luxe PIO caps, and if that doesn't work, a 50's schematic will be used.

Before I heat up my soldering iron and rework a perfectly good 2010 Traditional, is there really a difference changing from stock
pots/caps to CTS and PIO caps? In the end, was it worth it? Or could you have got the tone you found through less drastic measures? I really don't like to mod guitars unless I can't find whatever is lacking tone wise.

Your experience and results, please.
Click to expand...
I like 500k pots and PIO caps in LPs.
But there's no overwhelming reason to get vintage-style PIO caps.
Aesthetics aside, Russian or Mojotone Vitamin T caps will work just fine.

Aside from value change, the only other reasons to change out pots would be to get a different taper or to add a push/pull.

I'd go with the 50's wiring schematic since it's probably wired modern, already.
Heck, you might want to make some test recordings before you put iron to solder to help you hear the differences.

Then I'd look into dependent/independent volume wiring depending on what you like.

If that doesn't get you what you're looking for, I'd start playing with pickups and/or magnet swapping.

Good luck and have fun.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

1) CTS pots rated 500k range in value from 390k to about 560k. Unless you buy a boat load and test them yourself, dont trust the value.
a) There is NOTHING special about CTS pots.

2) You get more bang for the buck changing VALUE of the parts, not the brand. Brand means nothing. Cap construction means nothing. Measured value means EVERYTHING.

a) Order a bunch of pots, choose some that measure over-value. That will brighten things up a hair. If your pots already measure 500k ish, you wont hear much difference unless you go to something like a 1M in the neck. That would significantly brighten things up. CTS, Bourns, Alpha........all basically equal junk.

Bourns pots CONSISTENTLY measure UNDER value. The mean for a 500k bourns pot seems to be about 460k, so if you want brighter, avoid. 500k CTS pots also have a mean value below 500k; if you want 500k or above, you have to get a bunch and measure them. Alpha pots are consistently closest to the stated value and seem to have a mean value of the stated value or maybe even slightly higher. If you want good pots, order 1W or 2W mil spec. You'll pay for them, but you will still probably pay less than any of the "aftermarket parts kit" sellers charge you, which amounts to $50 or more for $15 worth of cheap parts sprinkled with pixie dust and unicorn poop, and you'll get a MUCH better product.

b) Dont pay $ for pixie dust caps. Get orange drops or poly chicklet caps, and change the value. Don't use .022uf. Try .01uf, .0047uf, .0033uf, .0022uf. My favorite with humbuckers is .0022uf. Gives a very nice jazzbox hollowbody sound when rolled back, doesn't sound like your amp is burried in your yard like .022uf does. A $150 .022uf cap is STILL a .022uf cap, except it has the word SUCKER written on the side.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

LtKojak said:
I'd go for the whole enchilada.

Good 550K audio taper CTS pots, Switchcraft toggle and jack, .022 Sprague Vitamin Q PIO caps and the whole thing wired with vintage braided cable and independent '50s wiring mod.

THEN you can set your p'ups up aiming to hit the "sweet spot".

At this point use the tone controls to adjust the desired brightness of each p'up.

DONE! You've got yourself the best instrument that guitar can ever be.

BTW, what p'ups does that instrument have?

HTH,
Click to expand...

'57 Classic (N) and '57 Classic (B), which I kinda like. That's why I'm reluctant to swap them out. I installed a pair into a Sheraton II and they are perfect. I mean clean when I want them, rude when I want them, and always there when I need them. Which prompted the question - how come I can't get this out of the Les Paul? And that started the whole inquiry.

And yes, I have stayed away from the whole "sucker" $150 vintage thing. I have ordered a few different sets of caps to try, though, not paying more than $15 per. On deck for future testing are the K40y-9 PIO, some Mallorys at about $2 per, and I did splurge for a set of NOS Cornell-Dublier for about $7 per. What the hell, I'm in an experimental mood and whatever I don't use in the LP can go into my SG's. The most expensive were the Luxe repro's that came with the RSGuitarworks kit. I did kind of slap my forehead after those...

One thing I did decide to do though, just because my instincts tell me is to go ahead and shield the wiring cavity and the pickups. It occurred to me that the tin plate that Gibson installed is doing the same thing - and I can't disagree with it. Some copper foil won't hurt anything.

The more I look into this though, yes the cap and value are going to have an effect, but I agree that it is the pot limit (300 vs 500k, etc.) that may be the defining or limiting resource. The 1/8'' soldering iron tip (that was the hardest part to find; I don't want to overheat a pot if I can avoid it) that I asked for came in yesterday, so we will have to see if I can't get a few things wired up and installed this weekend. Recordings? You bet - an absolute must.
 
Last edited:
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

I love the RSguitarworks Superpots! Their PIO and Modern Caps are great aswell. I'm going to be ordering a prewired vintage/modern LP upgrade kit from them for my new les paul standard.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

GuitarDoc said:
You'll get more presence/treble by increasing the value of your pots from 300k to 500k.

Depending upon the value of your caps already, decreasing them from .047 (or .022, whatever you have in there) to .022, .015 or even .010 will give more presence and highs especially when you roll down the tone. You really won't hear much difference between the different types of caps...some may say you will, most will say you won't (I don't hear any difference at all, but I use orange drops because they are good quality middle of the road).

The 50's wiring may give you more clarity but nothing you'll actually notice.

The only way you'll get more volume/output or complexity is by changing the pups.
Click to expand...

What the 50's mod does is allow me to turn the volume down on my guitar and strum chords with much more clarity. It's a big improvement, IMO, and very noticeable. Maybe not so noticeable an improvement for those who play with buzzy distortion constantly, but for those who appreciate clean and semi-clean tones, especially for rhythm, it's a Gawd send. There are no drawbacks and only positives, IMO, and it's simple to do. Just connect the tone control to the middle lug of the volume pot. I do like 500K pots for my humbuckers and I do use .02 capacitors - usually oil in foil capacitors although I also use Orange Drops in some of my guitars. I can't put my finger on why I like oil in foil capacitors - I couldn't describe a difference in sound between them and orange drops and there may be none. All I can say is that my best sounding guitars have oil in foil caps and the sound seems to "feel" better.
 
Last edited:
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

I made a Squier "Dave Murray" copy strat, with DiMarzios and a Fender single coil. I just used the stock Squier pots etc.
I decided to install CTS pots and an orange drop. It never sounded any better.
That's why my beloved Epi Black Beauty still has the little mini-pots and green chickpea cap its had in it since I got it in 1996!
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

One thing that hasn´t been mentioned: Do you have covers on your pickups? Removing those would certainly give you more presence, might add a little volume as well.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

All good suggestions. You can definitely go overboard with some "brands". CTS and Orange Drop are great for the price.

50's-Independent wiring will give you the brightest tone especially as you roll the tone pot down.

If you like the looks of the covers on your 57's, then by all means keep them. I also really like the tone of the 57's, but many people feel they are too dark or muddy sounding. If you want to brighten them up a bit but still retain their character (and the covers), replace the A2 magnets with roughcast UOA5 mags.
 
Re: Pots and Caps change-out: The Payoff?

Again, changing values changes tone, not brand or construction.

'50s wiring doesnt work well as you turn the tone down since it puts a resistance between the pickup and the tone cap. If you want 'more high end as the tone gets rolled off", which is typically what people say when they want to muck with that '50s wiring, get a smaller cap on your tone pot. Makes exponentially more difference and doesn't act funny as the knob is rolled back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top