Power Tube Saturation

[jonnymangia]

Why is this regarded so highly? After I complained incessantly about the thin sound of my SG, a bunch of forum members told me that the guitar would come to life if I played through a cranked amp. Well I finally had that chance this weekend as I cranked my Classic 30 with a new G12H30 and once I brought the POST volume up above 5 or 6 I thought the amp was going to explode. It lost all of it's ability for articulation as it turned to mush. Maybe I was doing something wrong, or maybe I just need to get a Marshall, but I don't see how you can play past halfway and get a decent sounding chord...let alone deal with the ear bleeding!!:smack:

 

[Sune]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Maybe if you had a better amp to crank, you would understand..??

 

[jonnymangia]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

The majority of the opinions on this board, and others , is that the PEavey Classic 30 is a damn good amp, arguably one of the best for classic rock/blues in that price range. Coupled with a G12H30, it should shine. So I'll dismiss your remark and wait for someone to reply who is going to contribute something of value.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

I'd be inclined to agree with Sune..and I don't mean it in a negative way...

IME El84s sound best with just a hint of breakup...actually any small bottles...6v6 too..and in big bottles, I really don't care for much breakup in 6L6s either...they all get mushy when driven super hard...this is where El43s, KT66, 6550s, etc shine...

Also remember...the quality of cab/speaker, etc makes a diff..as well as TUBE quality...and pickups...Try it through a 4x12 and get back to us

The peavey classic combos/delta blues from what I can tell sound best at about 1/2 up, but I don't have much play time on them....

Marshalls on the other hand (at least pre 900 series) only get better as you crank 'em...NMVs can get a bit mushy too...so they aren't excluded from it...but in general, the louder the better.

My Rivera has a sweet spot too...there is a point where too much power tube is a bad thing.....pretty much anything above 6 or 7 on the MV starts to get "farty"..though I suspect a 4x12 would cure that

 

[vinterland]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Did you EQ the amp once you turned it up? Low volume EQ is going to be different than high volume.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Power tube saturation is a funny thing.

A good experiment with this is the Fender Pro Junior. 15 watts, volume and tone knob, that's it. So you can really crank it, NOT have your ears bleed, and see what "power tube sat" is all about.

On my pro junior, there's DEFINATELY a sweet spot for power tube saturation. And after that sweet spot, it turns to a mushy, fuzzy mess. but IN that sweet spot, whaaaaaa, lookout, its awesome.

Have you changed your preamp tubes lately? Also, different "hardness" ratings for power amp tubes will stay clean and tight longer, OR, reversely, break up to fuzzy mush sooner...

What kind of pickup d you have in it? What kind of sound are you going for?

 

[jonnymangia]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Thanks for the feeback all. Here's the rig:

SG Standard
'59's in bridge and neck
.10's
Peavey Classic 30 w/ G12H30 speaker

Tones...I'm chasing the early Clapton, ZZ Top first album vibe as the priority. Also dig Sabbath, Ac/DC, GNR and EVH when I want to dial in more gain.
I am TOTALLY open to ditching this amp and going with a Marshall (actually the Bluesbreaker combo is making me salivate) but I have heard really nice things about the C30 so I want to try and salvage it before it goes on Ebay.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

While I'll heartily agree that amps need to be pushed a bit to get to the sweet spot, I'm not much of a fan of power section distortion.

Very few amps actually get pushed to the point where the power tubes are distorting on sustained notes. Even a lot of non-master volume Marshalls that folks point to as examples of "power tube distortion" don't actually push the power tubes into clipping--it's actually the PI that clips and that's why PPI master volumes are so effective in those amps.

IME, if you're getting power section (PI or power tube) clipping, it works best with light to moderate distortion. If there's a lot of preamp overdrive, it tends to mush out, regardless of how good the amp is.

 

[jonnymangia]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

And re: the tubes in the amp, they are EL84 groove tubes. They were a month old when I bought the amp used, so they are around 3-4 months old now and NOT pushed heavily.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Thanks for the feeback all. Here's the rig:

SG Standard
'59's in bridge and neck
.10's
Peavey Classic 30 w/ G12H30 speaker

Tones...I'm chasing the early Clapton, ZZ Top first album vibe as the priority. Also dig Sabbath, Ac/DC, GNR and EVH when I want to dial in more gain.
I am TOTALLY open to ditching this amp and going with a Marshall (actually the Bluesbreaker combo is making me salivate) but I have heard really nice things about the C30 so I want to try and salvage it before it goes on Ebay.

I take it that's a Gibson SG. The other guys are right about the tubes. Fresh good quality tubes can make it sound like a different amp. Even though you've got the GTs, your amp may not like them. I don't see why it wouldn't like the speaker but I wouldn't totally rule that out either. I know that's a much more expensive change so hopefully that speaker will work out. I love that speaker as well. I had a 59 bridge in an Epiphone Les Paul and it sounded great.

For a lot of the stuff you like, try to get to your local music store just for fun and try out a few different amps with your guitar. I plugged into the Crate Palomino V8 and couldn't believe what I was hearing for $279 so the higher wattage amps may suit your needs.

 

[Thames]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Jonny,

Well, I agree with most of the people here. While the C30 is still a good lil'amp for the money, it is NOT meant to be pushed hard. The output transformer in this amp is small, not intended for high volume gigs. It does a honest job in low-med volume. Dont expect more.

A few years ago, I was in the same ballpark. Gibby SG, with '59s, and a Classic 50, trying to nail Cream/ZZ/Sabbath/AcDc. Yeah. I finally sold the amp. The EL84 DO NOT fit for this particular job. Forget about it.

The C30 is a nice lil'amp, but NOT for our style. I now have a Laney GH50L with Marshall 4x12 (1960AX w/Greenbacks).. and NOW we're talking 'bout tone ... never underestimate the power of a Laney. They are hidden secrets. Good luck!

 

[chill]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

You may need to adjust your preamp gain and EQ settings once the power section is really cranked. In particular, you may need to turn down the gain and low end EQ to reduce the mushiness. IMO that's part of the reason why Marshalls are voiced so brightly/ with a trimmed low end: when you crank them it helps things hold together.

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Honestly, try a different bridge pickup.

The 59 is great, in a les paul. In an SG, I can only imagine that it sounds super thin.

Try the Duncan custom. Huge low end, thick mids, but still enough definition. If you want beef FROM your guitar, you're most likely gonna have to slap another pickup in it.

My .02

 

[jonnymangia]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Jonny,

Well, I agree with most of the people here. While the C30 is still a good lil'amp for the money, it is NOT meant to be pushed hard. The output transformer in this amp is small, not intended for high volume gigs. It does a honest job in low-med volume. Dont expect more.

A few years ago, I was in the same ballpark. Gibby SG, with '59s, and a Classic 50, trying to nail Cream/ZZ/Sabbath/AcDc. Yeah. I finally sold the amp. The EL84 DO NOT fit for this particular job. Forget about it.

The C30 is a nice lil'amp, but NOT for our style. I now have a Laney GH50L with Marshall 4x12 (1960AX w/Greenbacks).. and NOW we're talking 'bout tone ... never underestimate the power of a Laney. They are hidden secrets. Good luck!

Now we're getting somewhere!
Regarding the '59 being too thin in the SG...a few of our forum brothers said that was the closest pup to what Clapton used with his SG in Cream. I do think it is thin at times. I have also thought about the Custom Custom but I think it may lose the vintage vibe I want for early ZZ Top and Cream. I have also thought about Seth Lovers, though I quesiton their sound with gain dialed in.

You said the EL84 doesn't fit with the job of dialing in Cream/Sabbath/ACDC et al. Then do I just need to switch tubes? And re: Greenbacks, I heard they were too mid-focused and not right for an SG. That's why I went with the GH1230. Lastly, if I am going to ditch the Peavey, I need a supple combo replacement. I would go directly to Marshall, but I have heard VERY spotty things about the DSL401. The Bluesbreaker combo looks great but may be a bit too much for me at this stage of the game. Maybe the Laney is the answer. How are the cleans on it?

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

You may need to adjust your preamp gain and EQ settings once the power section is really cranked. In particular, you may need to turn down the gain and low end EQ to reduce the mushiness.

I couldn't agree more. That's the thing that kept occurring to me as I read through all of the replies. It sounds as if the tubes are fine and the speaker is quality, so I would look to tweak preamp gain and overall EQ to get closer to what you're wanting to here.

 

[jonnymangia]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

I couldn't agree more. That's the thing that kept occurring to me as I read through all of the replies. It sounds as if the tubes are fine and the speaker is quality, so I would look to tweak preamp gain and overall EQ to get closer to what you're wanting to here.

Guys,

I tried this and when I rolled the preamp gain down, I lost alot of the distortion. I was left with some incredibly loud "grit" from the post amp that sounded like bad Neil Young w/ Crazy Horse.

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Sounds like you did just about everything within reason to get what you want out of the amp and it didn't produce what you're looking for. Sounds like it's time to go amp shopping to me.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

Wouldn't it be nice to get power tube distortion in a pedal?

Unfortunately, in most vacuum tube pedals, the tube is merely used in "starved plate mode" as a clipping diode. This is not not true tube amplification and it's not going to give you power tube saturation.

Wouldn't it be nice to get a pedal that couples a 100% vacuum tube signal path with high plate voltage? This would allow the tubes to operate to their fullest potential and provide the most gain and the smoothest tone.

It never hurts to wish...

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

That sounded distinctly like a hint. Surely, you'd never hear such a thing from a marketing guy, though...

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: Power Tube Saturation

it may be speaker distortion

just a thought, but what you described sounds like speaker distortion