Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

[Lewguitar]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

All of my amps are vintage 50's and 60's Fender and Gibson amps. And all are under 25 watts.

But I was very impressed with the Vox Night Train, especially after we retubed it with NOS GE 12ax7 tubes. We ran it through a 2 x 10 cabinet with a pair of inexpensive Jensen reissue C10Q speakers wired for 16 ohms and it sounded great.

BTW, guys like the Edge play through Vox AC30's. None of the Vox modeling amps, nor the Night Train which is a not a modeling amp but instead is a great little tube amp, get that authentic AC30 tone. Guys who think they do have never owned a real AC30.

 

[The Tone Ranger]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

Yeah...another guitarist in our church has an AC30 or AC15...can’t remember which. I’ve never been a VOX or Edge fan. I mean, they’re ok...but not “me”. I’ve always been more of a Marshall guy. I even like Marshall clean and blues tones.

I like the size and portability of those Vox NT and Orange TT heads...and the 15 watts/7 watts seems perfect for practice, small gigs, etc. I like the features and tone of Blackstar better than Vox or Orange though.

I’m hoping Scott Splawn will make one of his amps that size. He’s got the Streetrod head, but there’s no line out/speaker emulation. Now he’s got the Super Sport, which looks like a suitcase, but still not aware of line out. Of all the amps I’ve ever heard...Splawns and Boogie Recs are my favs. I just need one of those Radial ToneBone boxes to A/B them! These are expensive amps. If I had to “settle”, it would be a Blackstar...probably HT 20 paired up with their 4x8 cab.

 

[lemonman]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

As a fellow P&W player, here's my 0.02. If you're at all like our church, a real tube amp isn't going get played loud enough to get anywhere close to its sweet spot. My partner has a blackfaced old Pro Reverb with a V30 & a Greenback & it sounds terrific- when you can turn it up loud enough. At our worship levels, which are not much above conversation volume, our little Vox modeling amps sound bigger/fuller than the real thing. When I let him compare them side by side in the sanctuary, he went out & bought one right away (actually, I found it for him). The Pro goes to big secular gigs, the VT30 goes to church & sometimes small gigs.

I have a Night Train/1x12 Celestion Blue that's fairly new to me, and at last rehearsal was getting told to turn it down more than once; don't know if I'll bring it back or just stick with the AD30VT or my Tonelab. I've been looking at the Power Engines as well, if I find a good deal on one I'll probably grab it. The point is, use the right tool for the job. In P&W, oftentimes that means modeling.

 

[andrizzle]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

I think this all depends on your church's situation if that's where you're playing out primarily. I play almost every weekend at different churches. My home church is very large and has a sound system that I can crank a 2x12 '71 Pro Reverb through. It works incredibly for that situation. If I'm at a smaller church, a lot of the time I'll take a POD HD500 with me out of courtesy to the sound guy and convenience (for myself).

I'd rather play the Pro and all my pedals all the time, but sometimes I have to choose to not be selfish and evaluate the situation before I go.

The truth of the matter is that I COULD play the HD500 everywhere I want, so I'd say if you have to have a one-option rig then stick with the Pod in your situation.

I don't know a lot about the Live but with my HD I typically only use one amp model the entire time, and on that pre-set I have all the pedals I would like. I use it as a pedalboard run through a modeled amp rather than using 10 different presets in a set.

The only exception to the above statement is if I am playing a gig (church or otherwise) that requires a HUGE gambit of tone. - Heavy crunch, to jazz box, to AC30ish ambient stuff.... In that case I'll use a whole mess of presets, but I REALLY HATE having to program all that in, because I'd rather spend that time playing.

If you decide you want to do tube amp + pedals situation here's what I'd recommend:

USED Blues Jr. - $250-$300 (A USED newer Vox AC15 would be great too, but it's a little more $$$ and the BJr. is a great value)
Pedals:

• DD-20 - all the delay you'll need + it has tap tempo and presets
• Boss RV-5 - set on the modulation setting and you'll see what you've been hearing in all those songs
• Your Choice of Overdrive - I use a Timmy, but if you check out the Lovepedal OD11, it's $100 brand new and is basically a Timmy clone - or even the Dano Timmy clone is a decent option.
• Your Choice of heavier OD - I use a Zvex Box of Rock - it gets me everything I want in a distortion as well as a boost in one pedal.

That'll get you 98% of the way there in a P&W setting.

You're looking at around $$650-$800 if you shop around the used market. Sounds like a lot, maybe, but I've thought about it that if I had to honestly downsize to a bare-bones, but very complete rig, this would be pretty much it. It's close to what I run right now.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

praise is at super low volumes, and having a ton of diverse tones make modeling ideal. I dig my line6 bassguitar head, since it is diverse for cover band stuff. but for guitar I am a dirt lover, and modeling is not gonna cut it for me; I have never heard a modeler do a good fuzz pedal/amp tone.

I'm not a P&W player but it seems like every one posting on a guitar forum emphasizes the low volume aspect as one of the biggest challenges. As a married guy who likes to rawk out, I chased the dream of satisfying tone at no/low volume for about ten years. Here are some of the things I tried and learned:

• Pod XTL: Blech. Devices like this are why modeling gets a bad rap.
• Attenuators (Hotplate, Weber): Most cabs sound castrated without significant power running through them. With the right cab, you can get decent results at moderate but not exactly church-friendly volume (~80dB).
• Speaker sims (Behringer, H&K Red Box). I prefer the XTL to anything with the Behringer speaker sim. :earl: The Red Box is pretty decent through a PA but can grate a bit when played solo.
• ISO Cab: Better results than speaker sims but not something I'd want to schlep around. As with sims, when you DI guitar, it sounds "dry" without some reverb or delay to add a sense of space.
• Newer modelers. The XTL is about 10-year old technology. Things have come a long way since then even if you're not going to break the bank for an AxeFx or Kemper. Newer offerings from Zoom, Digitech, Roland and L6 are going to be much improved from what you've experienced with the XTL. While modelers excel when run direct to the PA, they are harder to monitor or carry a room without a PA. If you can keep yourself from compulsively tweaking, this is the biggest challenge I've found with the current generation of modelers. With a band, I use a small QSC PA cab with my modeler for this purpose. At home, I plug in studio monitors.

Speaking of compulsive tweaking, it seems to help a lot if you have an idea of what you want to sound like while avoiding trying to 100% nail some reference tone. Understanding how FX work together, particularly EQ and distortion, will pay huge dividends when dialing in a modeler and can be applied to amp/pedalboard rigs as well.

Just to give some perspective, I went full-time modeler about four years ago and don't want to play/own tube amps any more. While some might consider my rig overkill, I like that I can get the tone I want at any volume from headphones to ear-crushing with a rig that fits in my Mini. I love the fact that my tone is no longer subject to variations in humidity, line voltage, and other wacky environmental factors. It's very useful that I can rehearse managing my pedalboard when running through songs while wearing headphones. I'm grateful that I can record without ever putting a microphone in front of a speaker. I'm thrilled that I can give a sound guy a feed of my tone without worrying about him miking the cab the way I'd like.

Just a reminder that there are a few benefits to using modelers instead of tubes. I never bought into the "plug 'n play" aspect of amps given the way I churned my amp and pedal setups, swapped tubes, and modded things. With all that, I probably spent more time and even money chasing tone with analog rigs than I have since going the (high-end) modeler route. In my case, the analog side was where the really time-consuming, expensive, and frustrating tweaking compulsion really was.

My $0.02, FWIW, IMHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[The Tone Ranger]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

Thanks guys! Good stuff.

I like the idea of modelers...for all the reasons you just mentioned ^^^^. I think the best thing for me right now is just get a Tech 21 Power Engine 60 to amplify my L6 XTL when I play out. I thought about upgrading to the HD300 though.

LIke I said...amps and technology are changing all the time. Only more and better options await.

So, aleclee, out of curiosity, do you have an Axe-FX? 11 Rack? Isn’t it option overload? Do you have a special foot controller to change settings, etc.?

Thanks!

 

[aleclee]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

So, aleclee, out of curiosity, do you have an Axe-FX? 11 Rack? Isn’t it option overload? Do you have a special foot controller to change settings, etc.?

I have an AxeFx. I had an Ultra for a couple years before getting an AxeFx II.

I don't have issues with option overload. In fact, most of my go-to presets are based on the factory patches. I almost never use the "amp geek" parameters so editing a patch is a matter of setting the same things I'd set on an amp (gain, TMB, master, presence, etc.), selecting a cab, and adding FX. Now I'll grant you that there are like 100 amps and 70+ cabs to choose from but once you get a feel for what amps/cabs you prefer for different things, you tend to stick to a handful of amp/cab combinations. So you have a half dozen amp/cab combinations and you dial 'em in just like a regular amp.

IMO, here are the things to keep in mind when dealing with a modeler:

1. Have a plan about what you're trying to accomplish tone-wise. Have a plan as far as what you're trying to accomplish so you don't end up turning knobs hoping to stumble on a tone you like.
2. Know what you're changing. Don't change a parameter until you have a feel for what it does. Learn about things like parametric EQs before using them. They're powerful, but can do weird things to your tone if you don't know what you're doing.
3. Know when you're close enough. You're not going to keep fiddling endlessly with the controls on an amp. At some point you'll accept what you've got. That's a healthy thing to do on a modeler, too. Also, trying to completely nail a benchmark tone is a fool's errand unless you're a Jedi Master on the device.
4. Dial things in at "real" volume. Fletcher-Munson will kick you in the teeth if you expect patches dialed in at bedroom volume to work at gig levels. That, along with excessive gain/compression, is a big reason why modelers disappear in a mix.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

1. I don't remember the last time I was in a church that did not have a PA.
2. Most churches work hard to control stage volume.
3. It's not about us.

I've been using PODs in church since 2000, beginning with the 2.0. I might have the HD500 ready for this Sunday...depending on whether I find time for programming. I used the X3L for rehearsal tonight.

I play direct to the mixer. We use IEMs with an Aviom system. I play direct in our band and use a JBL EON15 for monitoring. Sometimes I'll split the signal to a small bass combo amp for a slight monitor boost.

I use 9-12 patches in any given service. I use a similar number of different patches in the band. We're playing a song this week that requires 2 distinctly different delays. I would not want to attempt that with my DD6 on the fly. In that one song, I use a clean patch with prominent repeats, an overdrive patch, and a lead patch. With the POD I make the changes with the touch of a switch. Each patch has two amps and signal chains. Again, that is for ONE song. But not pedal dancing.

There are some GREAT YouTube videos for getting good sounds out of the X3L. Glenn Delaune is especially good.

 

[LuredMaul]

Re: Praise and Worship Gear...time to upgrade from modelling?

Why not just get a good power amp and stage monitor
so you can hear yourself and run the pod you already have and still hear your self when more power is needed.