Pre-Amp Question

Lazarus1140

Lazarus1140

New member
Are mic preamps the thing to have for recording vocals?

Has anyone tried one of the inexpensive ART units?

I have one and have never tried it. I bought it trying to warm up a digitally processed guitar signal before sending it to the mains. It didn't help.

Wouldn't it be relatively inexpensive to build a tube preamp? I mean, it would have to be much simpler than a 5E3 circuit or something, wouldn't it?
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

A good mic preamp and a good mic will do wonders, it really opens up the sound. However if the rest of the chain aint pretty (ie. vocalist, converters etc) then your going to see minimal improvement. Lots of great DIY ones out there. Personally not a fan of the ART stuff, and don't get too caught up on tubes when it comes to mic preamps.

If your looking to get more into recording a small 3 slot lunchbox might be a good place to start, can setup a nice signal chain or whatnot.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

Kamanda~SD said:
A good mic preamp and a good mic will do wonders, it really opens up the sound. However if the rest of the chain aint pretty (ie. vocalist, converters etc) then your going to see minimal improvement. Lots of great DIY ones out there. Personally not a fan of the ART stuff, and don't get too caught up on tubes when it comes to mic preamps.

If your looking to get more into recording a small 3 slot lunchbox might be a good place to start, can setup a nice signal chain or whatnot.
Click to expand...

If the OP doesn't already have one, a decent audio interface is the place to start. The Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or Presonus Audiobox 22vsl are both available for less than $150 new, and will produce better quality sound than just about any preamp if it's being run into the line in on a PC sound card.

If the OP already has an interface, a nicer microphone will probably make more difference than a preamp will.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

The difference between mic preamps is STAGGERINGLY SMALL in the grand scheme of things. Any modern interface will have preamps that are just fine for recording. The only time you should think about adding an outboard preamp is if you know your existing preamps EXTREMELY well and are looking for a specific type of colouration. Using an inexpensive outboard preamp instead of the ones in your interface is more likely to introduce more noise and ground issues than anything else.

Microphone choice and placement has a MUCH BIGGER impact on your sound. If you are looking to 'warm' up your recorded sound, the preamp is NOT the solution; preamps are designed to be transparent ... far more transparent than what you are imagining, even if it has valves in it. A ribbon microphone will have a much bigger effect on 'warming' up the timbre of what you're recording, as will adding tape emulation/saturation via a plugin after it's recorded.

When we think of those old, 'warm' recordings, the ROOM and the MICROPHONES have a lot to do with the sound; after that is TAPE COMPRESSION and old style compressors ... the preamps have very little influence, overall.
 
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Re: Pre-Amp Question

Thanks for all the input. I am currently using a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 for my interface and a Rode NT1 for recording vocals. I was wondering if a tube preamp would take the sound to a higher level, and I am relieved that the consensus is that it's not worth it. I want my recordings to be high, albeit non-professional, quality, but I'd rather not spend any more money right now.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

TwilightOdyssey said:
Using an inexpensive outboard preamp instead of the ones in your interface is more likely to introduce more noise and ground issues than anything else.
Click to expand...

I asked about experience with A.R.T. because I have one that didn't meet my expectations for live use. For recording I would be more inclined to go with something like the UA Audio SOLO/610 or 2-610, but as I said, I'd rather hang on to the money.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

Dystrust - Completely correct. OP has a scarlet which is enough for most home hobbyists. Although I will say when I upgraded from an Edirol FA-101 (which i still use for mobile) to a RME FF800, the conversion quality alone had me floored.

Twilight Odyessey - Although I agree there are more important things to the chain first, Mic Preamp makes a bigger difference to me than what you are describing. Personal experiences/ oponions I guess!

OP - Honestly stick with what you have right now and learn to use it well. Play with different placements, rooms, mics (don't know where you live but you can rent mics cheap around here) and with mixing. What do you use for monitoring? IMO proper monitoring is more important than all...how can you tell something is improving your sound if you don't have good enough equipment to hear the difference? And once again, once you do look into preamps, throw your guitarists mind away and dont worry so much about tubes..

One of my biggest 'mistakes' was buying gear before I knew how to use it properly thinking it would just get me that sound instantly....a poorly placed mic sounds like **** whether its in a $200 built in interface preamp or a $700 external one!
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

I'm really not too bad at producing vocals. To be honest, I don't really know what to listen for, so they may not be as good as I think.

Mixing is my #1 weakness and I'm about to get back into programming drums which I really dislike.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

Lot's of great tutorials online...recordingrevolution is a great YT channel for learning, especially as he does not run through $200,000 worth of gear.

To be honest I am not that great either but constantly trying to learn. One thing I will say is when 'tweaking' something don't be afraid to crank something up or down to hear how its affecting it. Moving things in .5db increments all the time develops your ear much slower. Also, if you know anyone else with some cool gear or you can rent definitely go see the difference it can make! Especially if in the market for monitors, go bring a reference mix to a store and play through them all...its amazing how different they can sound from speaker to speaker.

Drum programming is never fun, but streamlining with saving common grooves and examining your workflow can help immensely. I'm glad there's more recording talk going around here lately!
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

I really needed to get one because 1) I wanted to try my condenser mic which won't work without one lol (phantom power) 2) Most of my mic'd guitar recording's turn out awful & I thought anything that might help with that would be nice.. 3) I use a crappy handheld recorder to record with no computer or interface.

The cheap Behringer preamp I got does help immensely. Not just in that it boosts the mic signal (hello usable/pretty decent bedroom level recordings!) but also..it's kicked me in the pants to actually experiment with placement/use my ears etc. The first few recordings I did with it (a couple posted here) were'nt great, but they were already a big improvement on what I'd usually managed before lol....& every day it gets better & better :)

I've never really got into or been overly bothered with mic placement etc (..just stick a mic in front move it around a bit till I think it sounds ok & then hope for the best) ..but new equipment of any sort does sort of inject some enthusiasm into things lol..so I'm really glad I bought it. My point being, sometimes just buying different stuff (especially if it's a good deal/cheap lol) helps in ways you would'nt really expect & you up your game as a result :bigthumb:
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

^^ Not necessarily. I think it depends on the needs of the user. In this case, yes. I am definitely not recommending he go out and spend $$ on an outboard preamp.
And Yes, some guys will just bash everything that doesn't say Neve on it, and yes, most built in interface preamps are more than adequate for most home recording applications, but my CAPI VP26's still smoke the pre's in my old Edirol FA-101. Not poo-poo'ing them at all (****, I recorded for years with those things) but a difference nonetheless.

Phantasmagoria said:
I've never really got into or been overly bothered with mic placement etc (..just stick a mic in front move it around a bit till I think it sounds ok & then hope for the best) ..but new equipment of any sort does sort of inject some enthusiasm into things lol..so I'm really glad I bought it. My point being, sometimes just buying different stuff (especially if it's a good deal/cheap lol) helps in ways you would'nt really expect & you up your game as a result :bigthumb:
Click to expand...

Gear can be inspiring. Although all it did in your case was inspire you to do something you should have been doing in the first place! hahah Mic placement and Mic choice trumps all in this discussion.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

Kamanda~SD said:
Gear can be inspiring. Although all it did in your case was inspire you to do something you should have been doing in the first place! hahah Mic placement and Mic choice trumps all in this discussion.
Click to expand...

+1

When it comes to recording, it's always a case of garbage in, garbage out at each stage IMO. It starts with a good take; fixing it in the mix just doesn't cut it most of the time. From there a well-chosen microphone in the right place is the next essential ingredient. A nice mic preamp can improve on a good microphone that's placed well, but it isn't going to help if the mic / placement are sub-par.

While it's true that new or good gear can inspire, we all need to remember that knowing how to use what we have should come first and I'm just as guilty as everyone else. I currently use an AKG C3000B into a MOTU 828 mkII to record vocals, and I'm not entirely happy with it. I keep telling myself that if I had that new NT-1 my recordings would sound a lot better...

Getting back to the OP's question, the first thing I'd try is to experiment with different mic positioning. Then if the Focusrite / NT-1 combo isn't cutting it for guitar, a different microphone would probably be a better option than a different preamp.
 
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Re: Pre-Amp Question

I was kinda wondering this too,
I am saving up for a shure sm7b and many say get a tube preamp

but more say get cloudlifter

my presonus 22 has 60db of gain, but its not super prestine and I do hear a bit of noise if I turn way up. but my plugins add a lot of gain so i hope I dont need cloudlifter.

still I am curious about stuff like the ART and the cloudlifter, its amazing how highly rated the feedback is from the general population

good luck dude!
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

everdrone said:
I was kinda wondering this too,
I am saving up for a shure sm7b and many say get a tube preamp

but more say get cloudlifter

my presonus 22 has 60db of gain, but its not super prestine and I do hear a bit of noise if I turn way up. but my plugins add a lot of gain so i hope I dont need cloudlifter.

still I am curious about stuff like the ART and the cloudlifter, its amazing how highly rated the feedback is from the general population

good luck dude!
Click to expand...

For an SM7B a cloudlifter is a much better choice than a tube preamp. The primary concern with an SM7B is having enough clean gain; with a tube preamp you'll either run out of headroom or run into their typically high noise floor at the same gain or less than an interface pre. A cloudlifter OTOH provides around 20db of gain that is virtually silent in terms of added noise.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

I have one of those ART preamps, and it's really no better than the built-in preamp in my MOTU Audio Express, at least with an SM-57 in front of a cab. I've tried it with and without the preamp, and found it's easier to just go with the MOTU's preamp. Less noise, less hassle, and save that extra mic cable for something else.

Of course an SM57 doesn't need the phantom power offered by either unit.

However, it does allow you to do certain effects that an interface may not, like cranking it to clipping stage so you get an old early 60s type of breakup without actually punching holes in your speakers. Since it's all in the preamp, the interface doesn't wig out, either.

Of course if the amp and pedals already do all that.....

If you've got the extra $40 burning a hole in your pocket, I'd say get the ART just to have "one more Crayon in the box". Everything can be useful in some way at some point.
Then again, I'm also a Mad Scientist...

I did find it better for doing voice-overs with a Shure BG 2.0, as it added a bit of low-end and made the mic more responsive. I prefer to get as much pre-processing done as I can to cut down on post-processing.
 
Re: Pre-Amp Question

cool TO, just pulled the plug on a Shure Sm7b tonight, next step is to see if there is merit to buy the cloudlifter :beerchug:
 
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