Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

[VinceT]

UPDATED WITH SOLUTION

SYMPTOMS: matched set of p-rails/triple shots in ES335 - problem with neck p-rail - both humbucker positions significantly quieter than single coil positions - parallel humbucker especially quiet and out-of-phase. Further investigation showed neck rail out of phase with bridge p-rail, but neck P90 in phase.

CONCLUSION: neck rail out of phase with neck p90 - i.e. the two coils of the neck p-rail are out of phase with each other.

SOLUTION: reverse red and green wires of neck p-rail (in my case on triple shot, but basically wherever they're connected to circuit) which puts the rail electronically back in phase with P90 without needing to open it up and flip magnets. Easy fix!

ORIGINAL POST

Folks - hoping you can help me pre-diagnose my 335 before I go in for the second time tomorrow.

Background - I put 59s and triple shots in my Les Paul, so very used to how things work and what they should sound like (particularly series vs. parallel humbucker, which I also have on my Music Man Reflex). My LP also has out-of-phase setting for middle, so I can get my Peter Green on. All of which to say I know what I'm listening for!

Today I installed P-rails and triple shots into my ES-335, as far as I can tell according to instructions. I wired the triple shots to the existing braided pickup wire - black and ground to shielding, white to core. Tested it with one string, and everything seemed to be working, so I strung it up completely and went down in the studio to test. No buzzing or bad connections, but...

The bridge pickup splits as it should, and the parallel humbucking sounds, well, parallel. The rail doesn't sound nearly like a single coil, but that could be down to pickup height, adjustment, etc. (And the fact it's in a 335). The P90 sounds P90-ish, so I'm not worried about the bridge.

But the neck pickup just doesn't seem right:

1) the single coil splits on the Triple Shot seem to operate in the opposite direction (I saw that mentioned on another thread, so maybe it's normal and I just need to flip the wires per instructions)

2) This is the weird one - the parallel humbucker sounds distinctly out of phase and experiences a SIGNIFICANT volume drop - let's say I'm at 4 for series humbucking, I have to open it wide to 10 to get even close to volume - as I say, I'm used to parallel and out-of-phase sounds - including relative volume - and this is neither, it's really, really thin. Note, this is nothing to do with middle-selector out of phase (the Peter Green sound) but instead when the neck pickup is isolated.

I'm planning on stripping the strings off tomorrow - I hate having to do that immediately after surgery! - and going in to see if I mis-wired anything - anyone have any ideas what I should look out for specifically? I'm hoping that there's just some messy solder joint (though as far as I recall, it was all clean), or maybe I just wired the wrong colors in the wrong places.

Any ideas?

Vince

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Some suggest turning them around so the rails are to the outside for a more "Stratty" sound.

As for the loss, I'd say check for cold joints or otherwise mistaken soldering.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Another thing to check is that the pickup leads' exposed portions are not touching once it's all mashed into the cavity. Had that happen to me, even after doing 3 previous installs just before (that was a long day, I tell ya).

 

[VinceT]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Went back in today and redid the connections for the neck (though reverse wired the triple shot so the coil splits work in the opposite direction). No dice, same issue.

But as I've given it a good play through today, here's what I'm hearing.

1) both single coil settings are clear and full volume, P90 slightly loude than rail.
2) series humbucking noticeably quieter than the P90 or rail individually - sounds almost like parallel itself - a little out of phase too - actually quite close to Peter Green mid position to my ears.
3) parallel humbucking is even quieter and, as described above, very out of phase - almost sounds like a piezo.

From playing and listening today, I wonder if the magnets inside the p-rail are out of phase with each other - that would explain why the single coil settings are full voiced and so much louder than BOTH humbucking settings. I've flipped regular humbucker magnets before, so not a stranger to delving, but from other threads it seems the p-rails may not be so straightforward?

Presuming one of the magnets is flipped, I should also expect out of phase in the middle setting corresponding to that magnet (I.e. If it's the P90, then it will be out of phase with the bridge P90 - similar for the rails. I need to go check that before deciding whether I'm taking the unit apart or not.

Any tips on getting inside the p-rails to flip magnets?

 

[BRHGM]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

That's pretty much my experience with P-Rails. The p-90 sound is great on bridge and neck. The rails are clear, but the humbucker is not what you would expect.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Fixed! A google search turned up a thread here (that the search engine here didn't!) where someone had exactly the same symptoms - sure enough the rail coil was out of phase with the P90 (and with the rail in the bridge) - seems like they know some leave the factory like this - it was simply a case of flipping the green and red wires at the triple shot (putting the rail out of phase electronically with it's magnetic out of phase-ness). Strung her up again and YES, full humbucker tone in both series and parallel. Loving the tone of all positions (the rail isn't stratty, but I didn't expect that to be honest, not for a thru neck 335!) I'm happy with my "P90 with some options"!

Now, I'm off to edit the first post with a solution summary - which I wish more would do - makes searching the wealth of valuable info here very much easier!

Thanks all,

Vince

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

I always mount the P-Rails in the Triple Shots with the reverse wiring to get the switches to "point" to the active coils.

Also, to get more of a Stratty tone, I mount the rail coil of the bridge P-Rails next to the bridge. This gives a much more distinct tonal difference between the P-90 and the Rail coils. It mainly affects the tone of the Rail coil...very little difference in the tone of the P-90 since its position relative to the bridge really doesn't change much.

If after doing this, you find that the Rail coil sounds too weak compared to the P-90 coil, just put an A8 mag next to the rail coil (keep the A5 next to the P-90 and make sure that you place the magnets so they repel each other).

 

[VinceT]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

I'll try that next time I change strings, GuitarDoc (I'd read the suggestion elsewhere too) - I was really after the P90 tone, and everything else is a bonus, so not searching for the strat tone with this guitar - interested to hear what it sounds like, though. I'm pretty sure I won't need to touch the magnets, the 335 is providing more than enough girth.

Muchas gracias,
Vince

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

I did a lot of work and experimenting with the P-Rails 5 or 6 years ago. I came up with this as the best tone and versatility you can get from this combo. You may want to do a search for my thread. I think it was called something like..."P-Rails, is it supposed to sound like this?".

 

[VinceT]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Yeah, that thread was on the path as I was researching the issue with my neck P-rail. I flipped the bridge pickup this afternoon (note to anyone researching - if you do this after wiring for 'normal' triple shot you'll have to flip that wiring per the 'reverse' instructions) - the rail is indeed brighter, so thanks for the advice - liking it a lot!

Cheers,

Vince

 

[Securb]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Fixed! A google search turned up a thread here (that the search engine here didn't!) where someone had exactly the same symptoms - sure enough the rail coil was out of phase with the P90 (and with the rail in the bridge) - seems like they know some leave the factory like this - it was simply a case of flipping the green and red wires at the triple shot (putting the rail out of phase electronically with it's magnetic out of phase-ness). Strung her up again and YES, full humbucker tone in both series and parallel. Loving the tone of all positions (the rail isn't stratty, but I didn't expect that to be honest, not for a thru neck 335!) I'm happy with my "P90 with some options"!

Now, I'm off to edit the first post with a solution summary - which I wish more would do - makes searching the wealth of valuable info here very much easier!

Thanks all,

Vince

Glad you got it fixed. I love the HB tone in the P-rails. Very full and beefy, lots of character.

 

[VinceT]

Re: Pre-diagnose - p-Rails, Triple Shots in ES-335

Indeed, I switched out the Gibson 57 classics that came with the 335 - they'd never worked for me, too muddy to my ears, and I'd never been able to get that 335 tone I was hearing in my head - after a good long session yesterday getting to know the p-rails I've got to say I'm impressed. I came across several threads where people were complaining about the p-rails not being the solution to everything - not surprising given some of the marketing - but my expectations were simple - a set of P-90s for my 335, everything else is a bonus! I'm recording my parts for a new EP tomorrow, so looking forward to hearing it in the mix.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk