Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

It's surprising when you discover how little gain a lot of heavy rock guitarists use. Aerosmith and Kiss are great examples of this. Their music may sound heavy, but they're not always cranking the gain.

Exactly!

I always think of "Whole Lotta Love" as really mean and distorted- but that tone is so clean...

It's also what keeps those songs from turning into mush.

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

The trick is in the production. I always felt Kiss, Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin had great production in the studio.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

There's that "certain special something" that tricks your mind into hearing things that aren't there, or not the way they appear...

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

The only time you'd be using a pedal as the "preamp" is if you ran that into the "In" of your effects loop.

The preamp takes the line signal and amplifies it to a signal level that the power section can use. Preamp distortion (or overdrive) is just pushing the preamp to its overdriving point- then that distorted signal is amplified. At tamer volumes the power amp isn't overdriving, it's just pushing the distorted preamp signal.

Dig?

Thank you for entertaining my questions.

DIG. Pre and power tubes, both are happiest when they get to feast on lots of power. But it's probably best if don't over feed the preamp tubes.

EDIT: I shouldn't have used that word....BEST....oops...I did...too late now. For me it's probably best for others it may not be best. Tastes may vary.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

There's that "certain special something" that tricks your mind into hearing things that aren't there, or not the way they appear...

Double tracking.

I haven't done alot of recording but no matter how thick the live guitar tone is the recording always sounds rather thin until you double track it.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Thank you for entertaining my questions.

DIG. Pre and power tubes, both are happiest when they get to feast on lots of power. But it's probably best if don't over feed the preamp tubes.

You know, there's some sort of happy medium/ give and take thing with it. There are some MVs that sound pretty decent on their own. Couple a good MV with a decent cab and you can play some really great sounding stuff without blowing your ears (or pissing off the sound guy). After hearing a good amp overdriving on the power tubes, that grunt, and the open-ness... Most MVs (and OD pedals) will sound compressed and... boring.

Of course its all in what YOU'RE looking for. On my amps I run the preamp anywhere from 11:00 (4) to 5:00 (10).

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Double tracking.

I haven't done alot of recording but no matter how thick the live guitar tone is the recording always sounds rather thin until you double track it.

My first 2 times in a "real" studio (it was a place where a majority of the guy's clients were jazz combos and radio commercials) I recorded my takes with the preamp dimed, that was how I had it live. After I got done with that, the engineer "suggested" that I record the exact same thing with the amp set cleaner and louder. Both times I really didn't want to. When he played back the song, he would turn on and off the clean guitar, and you could totally hear the definition of what was played just turn into mush with the gainy sound. Looking back at it, I really wish I would have listened to the engineer (and not dismissed him as a jazz dork) and cleaned up my "dirty" track and maybe even just forgone the "dirty" track. The way it ended up getting released was about 60% clean 40% dirty.

I think there's also something to be said about riffs. Riffs that sound tough, sound tough whether they're "clean" or not. Listen to Zeppelin's "Heartbreaker." The intro is just a guitar with a little bit of hair on it- but it sounds huge- because the riff is badass.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Hey Golden Boy- A while back I remember hearing someone saying stuff like that..."Hey your guys don't need as much gain as you think"...that kinda stuff. Perhaps it was you or I remember Bludave saying it also...anyway...One day I decided to record some of my playing. I had my strat and the gain cranked...I record a little bit and upon listening it sounded terrible. I cleaned it up the gain for a cleaner tone and viola it sure recorded lots better (but I'm still not ready to put any clips on the forum) and you totally right on concerning the Led Zepplin Heart breaker sound. I'm slowly learning that I really don't need that much gain. I'm slowly breaking free from the spell all that's 80's hair metal stuff put on me. :laugh2:

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I'm slowly breaking free from the spell all that's 80's hair metal stuff put on me. :laugh2:

It's not just the 80s thing. (yeah I grew up thinking my old Peavey Backstage Plus was "teh AWESOMEST!")

You "hear" things with that gain on it- it's the auditory hallucination thing. Think of how evil and distorted early Black Sabbath sounds- now listen to it, try War Pigs- it's pretty clean with some hair on it. Think of how mean Judas Priest's "You Got Another Thing Coming" or "Heading Out To The Highway" sounds, and those guitars are really clean. Heck, I heard Motley Crue's "Wild Side" on the way home from work tonite- and that's a lot cleaner than I remember... enough hair to get the pinch harmonics...

 

[firebirdV]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I'm a big fan of light distortion. Even Skynrd is bordering on too much for me, I rarely ever would play with that much.

Speaking of which, when not using a gain knob, what's distorting? Are both the preamp and power stages distorting or just the preamp (I'm speaking of relatively low volume on the clean channel with vintage output HBs).

 

[D-EJ915]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I put my DS-1 in front of the "clean" channel on my amp and kept the gain on a decent level, so the output wouldn't be freaking low, lol, and I jacked up the distortion all the way on the DS-1 and put the tone back to like 11 o'clock and it sounds wicked! lol, sad to say but at low volumes it totally owns the built-in gain channel on the ashdown :laugh2: I haven't used it loud, though. Still haven't dialed in that gain channel either, that'll happen eventually but I want an overdrive for it.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I think there's also something to be said about riffs. Riffs that sound tough, sound tough whether they're "clean" or not. Listen to Zeppelin's "Heartbreaker." The intro is just a guitar with a little bit of hair on it- but it sounds huge- because the riff is badass.

That's what I'm discovering. I find that when it comes to 'heavy' sheer volume and a good sense of rhythm is far more important than gain or overdrive....not that either of those hurt, but these days I try to run the bare minimum of gain I can get away with while still getting the sizzle or sustain that I'm looking for.

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I think a lot of folks use gain to mask their not-so-clean playing. It turns into a thunderous mess, but to them it's the lesser of two evils: that, or people hearing their messy technique.

Getting back to what screamingdaisy said about double-tracking, I agree that this is a terrific way to fatten up the tone and fill up the stereo sound. Another technique, one that I think surpasses the double-track and has been used for years to great effect, is playing two guitars: one slightly-to-moderately dirty and panned hard left, and another a little cleaner and panned hard right. Aerosmith does this all the time, and the result is magical. The two guitars can be playing the same chords with either the same voicings or slightly different voicings. Led Zep liked to do this, too; you don't need to have multiple guitarists to make it happen -- just multiple guitar tracks.

It takes some getting used to, especially in the studio when every nuance is captured and can be magnified, but a really professional record will result if it's done right.


- Keith

 

[MVI]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Traditionally, you are supposed to think of Marshall sounds as pre-amp, and Fender sounds as power amp. So much for conventional wisdom.

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Traditionally, you are supposed to think of Marshall sounds as pre-amp, and Fender sounds as power amp. So much for conventional wisdom.

Great...that's the comment that I was really looking for. Thanks MVI.
EDIT: I understand that probably a gross generalization...

 

[martinb28]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

I am wondering why. Why does poweramp tube OD sound better than preamp tube OD?

Is it because of the tubes used as powertubes? That a powertube (EL34/EL84/6L6/etc) clips a different way than a preamp tube (12AX7) when it is pushed and that's why we like the sound more?

Or is it the function in the amp? That regardless of whether I am using an EL84 or 12AX7 as a poweramp (Yes I know 12AX7s are rarely, if ever, used as a poweramp), pushing the poweramp section of the amp sounds better pushed than a preamp section?

I am just curious about how these things work. I understand everything ultimately comes down to my ears and what I like, but it is pretty well established that poweramp OD/saturation is more pleasing than preamp OD/saturation. But why?

THANKS!

 

[jeremy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

welcome to the forum!

"better" is very subjective. it sounds different. when you crank up a non-master volume amp all the way up (old tweed fender for example) the preamp will distort, the phase inverter will distort, the power tubes will distort and maybe even the speakers will distort. theres a lot of factors going on that make that sound.

this thread is also from 2007

 

[martinb28]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

Thanks for replying. I know this thread is from 2007, but it seems to be the most on point.

I understand "better" is very subjective, but it is at least agreed to be different. Whether one thinks Poweramp OD its better, less harsh, smoother; or one thinks Preamp OD is better, etc - there is a different sound. My question is why? What about preamp OD makes it affect the sound different than Poweramp OD?

What accounts for the different sound? The type of tube used? The signal being OD'd at the Poweramp stage, after already gone thought preamp, tone stack, reverb, etc.?

Thanks

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

actually if you listen to poweramp clipping vs preamp clipping at the same volumes they sound pretty damn similar.

Without specifying before hand this exact amp at this exact volume through this exact cab it would be impossible to say what you are hearing and account for the differences.

I can tell you this though what many guys think of as powertube distortion is actually the PI distorting. There are also many guys who dont like the sound of poweramp distortion. Generally when an amp is pushed that hard the bass starts to get flubby and indistinct. So dont think that power amp distortion is always better.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Preamp vs Power Tube Distortion

i dont know if ive ever heard isolated power tube distortion and guessing most others havent either. youd need a perfectly clean signal with tons of amplitude and a PI with a ton of headroom (unless the amp was single ended) so everything stays clean till the power tubes.