PTP versus PCB

R

richard parker

Active member
I've read the stuff on Mesa Boogie's and Bogner's sites arguing that PCB amps are as good if not better than hand wired amps.

I still see comments on the sites of the PTP amp builders like 'absolutely no PCB's used'.

Is there still any argument saying that, all other things being equal, a PTP amp should SOUND better than a PCB amp ?
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

I don't think it's as much about the sound as it is the reliability. PCB stuff can be mass-produced easily, though that doesn't automatically mean everything that uses PCBs are being mass-produced.

But, since the primary benefit of PCB is the ease of mass-production, most people mistakenly believe that's all it's being used for.

However, with all that said, the typical PCB process usually involves laying out thin tracers for the solder bath so you get clean lines. The process is not as reliable as hand-soldering, largely due to the solder not 100% sticking to the intended connections, or sloppy joints that touch another when they shouldn't. And of course it uses a thinner connection (solder film, basically, vs solid-core or braided copper wire).


This last part is where everyone who is anti-PCB will rally, chanting in unison "You get better tone with thicker wire than you do with solder trails, and because it was done by hand not machine."


However, to my knowledge, no scientific proof exists that one delivers a better quality of sound over the other.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

It comes down to circuit design....Nothing wrong with pcb and there is normally more room for the extra circuitry that is in alot of today's amps...A good friend of mine and a well known amp builder,took 2 1973 Marshall amps for a tonal test...1 was the PTP version and the other was the later pcb version...They recorded the tonal results and you can guess what the results were....Putting component tolerences into consideration,tonally there was not a difference that would validate 1 being better than the other..I Like working on PTP because it's easier,but my JCM 800 amp was pcb and was a great amp also..

More chance of oscillation and other electrical demons from the antenna effects of flying leads in an amp with the ptp...Look at the cbs period of alot of silver faced Fender amps as an example.
 
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Re: PTP versus PCB

DrNewcenstein said:
I don't think it's as much about the sound as it is the reliability. PCB stuff can be mass-produced easily, though that doesn't automatically mean everything that uses PCBs are being mass-produced.

But, since the primary benefit of PCB is the ease of mass-production, most people mistakenly believe that's all it's being used for.

However, with all that said, the typical PCB process usually involves laying out thin tracers for the solder bath so you get clean lines. The process is not as reliable as hand-soldering, largely due to the solder not 100% sticking to the intended connections, or sloppy joints that touch another when they shouldn't. And of course it uses a thinner connection (solder film, basically, vs solid-core or braided copper wire).


This last part is where everyone who is anti-PCB will rally, chanting in unison "You get better tone with thicker wire than you do with solder trails, and because it was done by hand not machine."


However, to my knowledge, no scientific proof exists that one delivers a better quality of sound over the other.
Click to expand...

STRATDELUXER97 said:
It comes down to circuit design....Nothing wrong with pcb and there is normally more room for the extra circuitry that is in alot of today's amps...A good friend of mine and a well known amp builder,took 2 1973 Marshall amps for a tonal test...1 was the PTP version and the other was the later pcb version...They recorded the tonal results and you can guess what the results were....Putting component tolerences into consideration,tonally there was not a difference that would validate 1 being better than the other..I Like working on PTP because it's easier,but my JCM 800 amp was pcb and was a great amp also..
Click to expand...

These guys both hit the nail on the head.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

With this being said about pcb vs ptp...I had a 66 Fender Deluxe Reverb amp that I owned....It had an oscillation that was very hard to find..Took quite awhile to find it...Ended up being the black breadboard that all the components were mounted to that was adding stray weird electrical stuff...I think that board is made of carbon and actually can become conductive..Add the flying leads and wires crossing all over and all around and sometimes you can see how a nice layout of the pcb circuit might just be better and more consistent from amp to amp.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

The problem is that it's impossible for all other things to be equal with two very different design and construction methods.

Each system has its pros and cons, but they are both perfectly valid ways of building an amplifier. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring reality, plain and simple.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

Basically for both, there are components, their arrangement and the signal you want to amplify and electricity. If the signal, the components and their arrangement are the same, then it's all the same for electricity to run the same route, through a cable or a thin layer of copper. Well, unless you use superconductors or the like and can deal with the applied engineering anomalies, all for tone, then realise that nothing sounds better for guitar than the far descendants of badly designed old radio amps using junk components and blown speakers ;)
 
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Re: PTP versus PCB

The advantage of PTP is that it is much easier to repair and modify. PCB amps can be great, as long as the layout is good, components are of good quality, and quality control is high... exactly the same things that separate good and bad sounding PTP amps.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

schecterplayer said:
The advantage of PTP is that it is much easier to repair and modify. PCB amps can be great, as long as the layout is good, components are of good quality, and quality control is high... exactly the same things that separate good and bad sounding PTP amps.
Click to expand...

There is no magic. This is pretty much it.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

There's plenty of lousy sounding/unreliable 'PTP' or tagboard amps...by now, most of them are in landfills.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

Back when I first got into the amp repair biz, I prototyped on eyelet boards because it was something I could do with basic tooling and if I screwed something up, all I had to do was make another board. PC boards were available, and cheap back then, but you had to buy like 10,000 of them if you had them made for your application. I didn't have the cash to drop on that and I doubt that many other small builders could have entertained the idea either. The PTP craze and the battle over which is "best" started, in my opinion, when those that had no choice but to go PTP, did everything to justify it other than admit that it was out of their reach to go with a PC board.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

glassman said:
Back when I first got into the amp repair biz, I prototyped on eyelet boards because it was something I could do with basic tooling and if I screwed something up, all I had to do was make another board. PC boards were available, and cheap back then, but you had to buy like 10,000 of them if you had them made for your application. I didn't have the cash to drop on that and I doubt that many other small builders could have entertained the idea either. The PTP craze and the battle over which is "best" started, in my opinion, when those that had no choice but to go PTP, did everything to justify it other than admit that it was out of their reach to go with a PC board.
Click to expand...

The biggest issue I always had working on alot of old Marshalls and Fenders mostly,was the ease of working on the ptp stuff...When I owned my JCM 800,it was a cool amp,but lifting the pcb on those amps was always a PITA...With that being said,if an amp sounds great,it doesn't matter to me whether it's pcb or ptb,but reliability is something I also find very important.These days I'm also very open minded to modeling amps and the ss stuff has come a very long way from say the ss Kustom amps we wanked through in the early and mid 70s...Some horrible ss stuff in those days! ;o)
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

One thing i do not like about (some of) the modern PCB amps is the direct mounting of the valves on the board.
I will think long and hard before i spend money on such an amp.
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

glassman said:
Back when I first got into the amp repair biz, I prototyped on eyelet boards because it was something I could do with basic tooling and if I screwed something up, all I had to do was make another board. PC boards were available, and cheap back then, but you had to buy like 10,000 of them if you had them made for your application. I didn't have the cash to drop on that and I doubt that many other small builders could have entertained the idea either.
The PTP craze and the battle over which is "best" started, in my opinion, when those that had no choice but to go PTP, did everything to justify it other than admit that it was out of their reach to go with a PC board.
Click to expand...

Glassman, i think you are on to something here . . .
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

46c60165c9b7c80f91df9a99cbea9643.jpg
 
Re: PTP versus PCB

I have to say, I have heard great and bad of both. But, somehow, PTP just looks prettier when done right.

IMG_1363.JPG


Not saying mine is done "right," but it's quiet (no hum), and it sounds amazing.
 
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