Quality gear... who knew?

[voggin]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

The problem with this debate is that there is no debate. It is just a series of "no, it isn't" responses to every point made. Kinda like the Monty Python argument shop skit.

Put something else in for pricier guitars, and you can have the same non-argument.

Polyester budget shirt vs. upper-end cotton shirt

1. I love my new cotton shirt. I can't believe it feels so much better than my old polyester ones.
- no it doesn't. You just think it does. Define "better feel"

2. Well, it breathes better. You know, lets moisture in and out.
- that's just your preference. Sometimes the purpose of a shirt is to keep moisture in.

3. Well, it feels nicer, it's softer.
- there is no way to quantify that. Some people may prefer the feel of polyester. You are just a natural-fibre snob.

4. But almost every sane human being prefers the feel of cotton, come on, man!
- they only feel that way because they are all mindless dupes of the cotton marketing cabal. There is no quantifiable difference between cotton and polyester.

5. Are you serious? Polyester feels gross!
- there have been remarkable developments in artificial fabrics. You are thinking of old disco suits from the '70s.

6. No I'm not. I'm talking about the five polyester shirts in my closet.
- well, you must have bad ones. The vast majority of polyester shirts are every bit as nice as pricey cotton ones.

7. Ask anyone to touch a polyester shirt and then to touch a cotton one. Overwhelmingly, they will prefer the cotton one.
- there has never been a study scientifically proving cotton shirts feel better than polyester ones.

8. I'm sure scientists have better things to do than to do studies on the blatantly obvious.
- that doesn't refute the fact that no such test proving your side exists. Therefore, you are wrong.

9. How does the absence of a test proving me right prove me wrong?
- Here's a study showing how bees can't tell the difference between hay and garden flowers.

10. (New participant) You know, I wore polyester shirts for years. Thought they were good enough. Finally sprung for some cotton ones. I gotta admit, they are better.
- Your experience is irrelevant, and subjective.

11. Of course it's subjective! I'm wearing the damn thing!
- You only like it better because it looks fancier.

12 It doesn't look fancier. It's a plain white shirt, just like the polyester ones!
- Here's a graph.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

If I showed that post to my 7 year old, his first grade education would enable him to understand the guitars I'm speaking of are the ones I own.

I shall assume you are either 6 (or less) years old, or you quit school prior to first grade.

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

No, but he appears to be quite the contrarian... some/many times that comes across as quite troll-like. It's like trying to argue with a lawyer. They love it. Ends-up being a dog chasing its tail even trying.

There's a segment of the guitar community that's utterly religious about the notion that nitro sound better than polly coatings, that dry wood sounds better than wetter wood, steel parts better than zinc, and so on, and the thing is they act like it's a universal truth, for example the assumption that you would buy a $500 guitar with zinc parts with dreams of one day replacing them them Callaham steel parts, or even upgrading the pickups, but the truth is all those stock components perform flawlessly and do not require upgrading, the upgrades are purely optional. They make assumptions that imports are for beginners and domestics are for pros... but they can't tell you why that should be, or how that came to be. It's circular logic: why do pros play domestic guitars? Because they're the best. Why are they the best? Because the pros play them... When you have a group of guitarists so deeply entrenched in domestic guitar worship, a dissenting opinion is going to seem contrarian. If this were a domestic gutiar worship forum, I could be be considered a troll since I would be there to defy the very thing that forum us about, but this is a pickup forum, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts they find their way into more imports than domestics, by orders of magnitude.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

There's a segment of the guitar community that's utterly religious about the notion that nitro sound better than polly coatings, that dry wood sounds better than wetter wood, steel parts better than zinc, and so on, and the thing is they act like it's a universal truth, for example the assumption that you would buy a $500 guitar with zinc parts with dreams of one day replacing them them Callaham steel parts, or even upgrading the pickups, but the truth is all those stock components perform flawlessly and do not require upgrading, the upgrades are purely optional. They make assumptions that imports are for beginners and domestics are for pros... but they can't tell you why that should be, or how that came to be. It's circular logic: why do pros play domestic guitars? Because they're the best. Why are they the best? Because the pros play them... When you have a group of guitarists so deeply entrenched in domestic guitar worship, a dissenting opinion is going to seem contrarian. If this were a domestic gutiar worship forum, I could be be considered a troll since I would be there to defy the very thing that forum us about, but this is a pickup forum, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts they find their way into more imports than domestics, by orders of magnitude.

Well then I guess all the upgrades on my IMPORT strat copy have been moot! I guess the stock ceramic bar magnet single coils aren't as ****ty as I remember! All because Drex says they didn't need to be upgraded!

The arguments of nitro vs poly has nothing to do with the debate... That is a touchy subject that has believers on both sides. However there is almost no argument on the quality of budget vs high end guitars... sure with a good setup and pickup adjustment you can get an affinity squier to sound and play pretty good stock. But you'll soon realize after playing a MIA strat that there is no comparison. Sure you can upgrade the squier but in the end it's still a squier.... not bashing squier it's just the truth. It's like buying a Ford pinto... it's cheap and gets the job done. sure you can make it faster, paint it, handle better etc but in the end you're still left with a pinto... however when you see a brand spanking new mustang you're gonna wonder why you even bothered with the pinto when the mustang already has everything you want. It's fast, looks good, handles great and to boot it's somewhat affordable... That is essentially what the OP was pointing out... except in relation to guitars of course.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

There's a segment of the guitar community that's utterly religious about the notion that nitro sound better than polly coatings, that dry wood sounds better than wetter wood, steel parts better than zinc, and so on, and the thing is they act like it's a universal truth, for example the assumption that you would buy a $500 guitar with zinc parts with dreams of one day replacing them them Callaham steel parts, or even upgrading the pickups, but the truth is all those stock components perform flawlessly and do not require upgrading, the upgrades are purely optional. They make assumptions that imports are for beginners and domestics are for pros... but they can't tell you why that should be, or how that came to be. It's circular logic: why do pros play domestic guitars? Because they're the best. Why are they the best? Because the pros play them... When you have a group of guitarists so deeply entrenched in domestic guitar worship, a dissenting opinion is going to seem contrarian. If this were a domestic gutiar worship forum, I could be be considered a troll since I would be there to defy the very thing that forum us about, but this is a pickup forum, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts they find their way into more imports than domestics, by orders of magnitude.

Anybody else notice a broken record playing in here?

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Anybody else notice a broken record playing in here?

Its been playing for what the last 5 months?

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Well then I guess all the upgrades on my IMPORT strat copy have been moot! I guess the stock ceramic bar magnet single coils aren't as ****ty as I remember! All because Drex says they didn't need to be upgraded!

Some Duncans and DiMarzios use ceramic magnets...

The arguments of nitro vs poly has nothing to do with the debate... That is a touchy subject that has believers on both sides. However there is almost no argument on the quality of budget vs high end guitars... sure with a good setup and pickup adjustment you can get an affinity squier to sound and play pretty good stock. But you'll soon realize after playing a MIA strat that there is no comparison. Sure you can upgrade the squier but in the end it's still a squier.... not bashing squier it's just the truth. It's like buying a Ford pinto... it's cheap and gets the job done. sure you can make it faster, paint it, handle better etc but in the end you're still left with a pinto... however when you see a brand spanking new mustang you're gonna wonder why you even bothered with the pinto when the mustang already has everything you want. It's fast, looks good, handles great and to boot it's somewhat affordable... That is essentially what the OP was pointing out... except in relation to guitars of course.

The thing about "quality" is that it usually it applies to how well something functions, which is to say good quality lasts a long time or works well / low quality breaks quickly or performs poorly, but in the world of guitar the meaning of the word "quality" has been perverted to simply mean "vintage". For example, a nato or poplar body guitar is considered "low quality" compared to ash or mahogany, but all these woods perform equally "well" and none will wear out faster than another, if at all, but the ash or mahogany is prized because it's what was used in the vintage era, and the latter are associated with import guitars. Same with steel versus zinc, the difference between them is one of tone, not of performance. Contrast this with soft metal saxophones, where the soft metal will cause the instrument to contort and break, such is not the case in electric guitar application, where the metal type has to no consequence with respect to functionality. When you spend $1000, mostly what you're paying for is vintage style and aesthetic, not better "quality" in the word's true meaning.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

DreX, JB_From_Hell has been a member for quite a while. He's a respected member of the community. He comes back to talk shop again, or share an experience, and you manage to turn it into an 8-page religious debate (which is a banned topic), and if I were he, I'd just quit again. You try to make people believe that your opinions are fact, and in doing so, are driving away members whom I value personally. Established, respected members.

So can you please do us a favor and make your point then refrain from arguing about it?

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Its been playing for what the last 5 months?

Well, if you think complaining about me is a valid use of your time, more power to you.

 

[Lampy H]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

I like playing guitar.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Comparing a pickup designed and produced in the USA to a crappy $3 pickup doesn't make you sound to informed... I guess all ALNICO strat pups must sound good since they all use copper wire and ALNICO magnets!

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Its been playing for what the last 5 months?

At least.

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Comparing a pickup designed and produced in the USA to a crappy $3 pickup doesn't make you sound to informed... I guess all ALNICO strat pups must sound the same since they all use copper wire and ALNICO magnets!

A $3 pickup can sound good, it's certainly not impossible. Ceramic versus alnico is really a matter of preference. They are actually well suited for metal and high gain applications, hence their use in DiMarzios and Duncans.

I don't have access to material and labor costs, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the unit cost of an SSL-1 is less than $3.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

Well, if you think complaining about me is a valid use of your time, more power to you.

Tell me though... Isnt this the same argument you've been up to your neck in at least 6 times before? Doesnt it always end the same? Nothing changes. So I stand by the sentiment that it seems like a broken record is playing.

Very little of the internet is a valid use of time yet... here we all are... Even those gnashing their teeth screaming for others to go play guitar are sitting right here biting their nails hitting refresh hoping for another morsel of internet tripe.

 

[firebirdguy72]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

A $3 pickups can sound good, it's certainly not impossible.

I don't have access to material and labor costs, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the unit cost of an SSL-1 is less than $3.

I'm talking about cost to the consumer... not cost of production. There is a reason why those ****ty pickups are $3 and SSL1's aren't...

 

[dominus]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

They really are. They are ergonomically beautiful and the sound is amazing. You don't expect so much thunder from such a light axe.

I didn't care for the upper horn on the Parker. Poked me whenever I sat down and played.

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

There are some new names in this thread.

There's also the principle of the thing. If I'm dissuaded by insults, such as the picture above, then the terrorists will have won.

 

[DreX]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

I'm talking about cost to the consumer... not cost of production. There is a reason why those ****ty pickups are $3 and SSL1's aren't...

There are a lot of variables that factor into cost apart from quality, my point is that SSL-1 aren't made of gold, either.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Quality gear... who knew?

The thing about "quality" is that it usually it applies to how well something functions, which is to say good quality lasts a long time or works well / low quality breaks quickly or performs poorly, but in the world of guitar the meaning of the word "quality" has been perverted to simply mean "vintage". For example, a nato or poplar body guitar is considered "low quality" compared to ash or mahogany, but all these woods perform equally "well" and none will wear out faster than another, if at all, but the ash or mahogany is prized because it's what was used in the vintage era, and the latter are associated with import guitars. Same with steel versus zinc, the difference between them is one of tone, not of performance. Contrast this with soft metal saxophones, where the soft metal will cause the instrument to contort and break, such is not the case in electric guitar application, where the metal type has to no consequence with respect to functionality. When you spend $1000, mostly what you're paying for is vintage style and aesthetic, not better "quality" in the word's true meaning.

I do not remember ever seeing the words "quality" and "vintage" used interchangeably in this thread or any others. Quality means something built to last, with care and with little to no defects either cosmetically nor mechanically (or in the case of a guitar something that would affect playability/functionality). Can that be an import instrument? Of course it can be. There have been plenty of people posting in here who have said as much. Can that mean a more expensive guitar? Absolutely, as we have seen plenty examples of those being mentioned as well.

However, I have to mention this since you keep bringing it up: your zinc versus steel argument has no merit. Zinc is a very soft metal. You will notice on some "vintage" Gibson Les Pauls (for example) they used zinc for the bridge and saddles. Over time these bridges begin to "smile" and the saddle slots begin to sink. Why? Tension and friction are not friends of soft metals. Replace those bridges and saddles with steel and this problem is no longer an issue. The same can be said for any guitar with zinc saddles or bridge parts. Over time the saddle slots will sink and the zinc parts with tension on them will warp. That is just a fact. Does zinc seem as high quality as steel when you consider these factors? Probably not.