Question about gain and pickups

[Loserchief]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Thanks for the all the replies so far. So if gain just covers up sloppy technique, why did Dimebag use so much of it? Plus, another question. I've seen Rusty Cooley pull off descending legato runs without ever plucking the string with his pick and they sound clean, smooth, and articulate. I know this is from experience, but seriously, how hard would he have to hit the freaking string with his left hand to make it sound as if he picked it?

Rusty uses very tall frets that are close to the feel of a scalloped board. Combined with very low action you'll only need very light touch to playi left handed only. That's the point of his playing, with a heavy left hand he wouldn't get up to the speed he is.

As for gain: It really depends on the guitar and amp used. Some amps will cover a lot of sloppiness, some will bring it out. It's the same for pickups and for guitars.

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Well i play hi-gain mostly.My gain need is over jcm800s (not modded ,not boosted) capabilities.i don't think that my sound is too mushy.I like the "raw " feeling ,so i don't want to go too tight.but it is possible.
playing hi-gain amps and playing guitars with hi-output Pus is not the same thing at all.
We can take a tele with low output PUs ,go thru a booster and let a 5150 scream!
The only problem would be the volume differences on strings ,wich have open wide dynamics but not enough compresiion to sound even.I had that problem on recording a track ,tried to do the same run on a lower string and higher register.it was suddenly louder.I couldn't use that track.Made it again!

For the debate ,i love hi-gain sounds.My guitar sing and scream forever , my harmonics just ripp ,and my legatos just shine.
It's a matter of taste and technique.My band mate plays allways with JB ona super strat ,and can't even handle my Neck-thru PATB2 equipped guitars.He begins to play sloppier (altough i have thicker strings) ,his riffing becomes muddy (wich never happens to me on that sclae) ,and the gain structure is too much for him ,even on the same amp ,same tone!
BTW as Loserchief mentioned ,the string height and the PU height is extreme important.If Yngwie plays soo fast and fluent ,it's because of his guitar design.Thicker SSfrets ,scalloped fretboard and low action makes his guitar scream and sing even under moderate gain!

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

So I assume you think everyone needs to shred like yngwie to qualify as a guitarist?


.

LMAO . . . maybe he has never hear of this old geezer by the name of Keef Ridchard :fingersx: :smokin:

 

[Mephis]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

LMAO . . . maybe he has never hear of this old geezer by the name of Keef Ridchard :fingersx: :smokin:

Yea, hell keef even cliped his low E.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Yea, hell keef even cliped his low E.

MMMmm, never knew that one !!!

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

BTW since nobody did it;
Welcome to the Forum Bro!
tell us about gear and you style.
Cheers!

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Ever heard of light touch and speed picking?

Give those people a compressor to even out the dynamics and they'll sound identical clean as they will under gain. Hell, almost all the rockabilly guys use compressors for that reason.


And for the sake of music, if they sound good under gain then what's the problem? Guitar playing isn't an olympic event...

Yes I have heard of it and it is completely irrelevant

Your just proving my point. If they had the technique they wouldn't need a compressor to even out dynamics. They need help to play it and have it sound even. Whether its a compressor or the compression from high gain covering it, its still covering up poor technique.

 

[Mephis]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Yes I have heard of it and it is completely irrelevant

Your just proving my point. If they had the technique they wouldn't need a compressor to even out dynamics. They need help to play it and have it sound even. Whether its a compressor or the compression from high gain covering it, its still covering up poor technique.

It's not covering anything.

It's evening things out. It can mask a mistake or it can make it way more obvious.

In most cases it's going to make your mistakes more obvious but keep a more consistant volume.

And for the record, high output pickups don't always make playing easier. I thought a pearly gates was easier to play with than a JB.

 

[daemon barbeque]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Yes I have heard of it and it is completely irrelevant

Your just proving my point. If they had the technique they wouldn't need a compressor to even out dynamics. They need help to play it and have it sound even. Whether its a compressor or the compression from high gain covering it, its still covering up poor technique.

Well not true.I will give you the chance to play hi speed alternate picking and control the dynamics!8 notes per seccond.please do it and tell mewhen you can!!!!
Noone can control the volume that precisely!Even if somebody plays the same amp with the same adjustment and the same guitar in the same room with same strings(in same condition) and same humidity!
As i said ,it's impossible!The compressor is not a tool to hide your bad playing.it's a tool to get an even tone even in hard situations.I don't use it and i am not a fan of it ,but blaming people for using an effect pedal is not appropiate!
I am not shure if EVH ,VAI ,Satriani ,Loomis, and all the others try to hide their mistakes.If it was like that ,why do they play so complex?

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Thanks for the all the replies so far. So if gain just covers up sloppy technique, why did Dimebag use so much of it? Plus, another question. I've seen Rusty Cooley pull off descending legato runs without ever plucking the string with his pick and they sound clean, smooth, and articulate. I know this is from experience, but seriously, how hard would he have to hit the freaking string with his left hand to make it sound as if he picked it?

Stop reading into things. No one said high gain was bad. The simple fact is that it will help hide sloppy technique. Its a side effect. That's a fact. I personally think Dime sounded like ****. I can't speak to the technique because I didn't listen to enough of him to know or care. The sound was painful

 

[Mephis]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Stop reading into things. No one said high gain was bad. The simple fact is that it will help hide sloppy technique. Its a side effect. That's a fact. I personally think Dime sounded like ****. I can't speak to the technique because I didn't listen to enough of him to know or care. The sound was painful

What kind of high gain amps have you owned?

When I went from my lower-medium gain setup to my 6505 I had to completely alter my left hand technique to be smoother and my picking to be more accurate.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

I play clean about 40% of the time, low gain about 45% of the time, and high gain about 5% of the time. I don't think that it's easier to play with high gain, just quite different. In my experience the compression caused by high gain will show unmuted strings, poor timing, and certain types of muffed notes much better than a clean amp. On the other hand, a clean amp brings with it a whole range of dynamics issues and it's harder to get notes to sustain. It's not the case of one is better than the other, just that they're very different approaches to playing guitar.

 

[Dabatross]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Rusty uses very tall frets that are close to the feel of a scalloped board. Combined with very low action you'll only need very light touch to playi left handed only. That's the point of his playing, with a heavy left hand he wouldn't get up to the speed he is.

As for gain: It really depends on the guitar and amp used. Some amps will cover a lot of sloppiness, some will bring it out. It's the same for pickups and for guitars.

I have a piece of **** Bronze BC Rich guitar that I'm using right now with jumbo 2.7 mm frets. What does Rusty use because I've tried to pull off his runs with my guitar and they just don't "sound" out like his do.

 

[FretFire]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

I have a piece of **** Bronze BC Rich guitar that I'm using right now with jumbo 2.7 mm frets. What does Rusty use because I've tried to pull off his runs with my guitar and they just don't "sound" out like his do.

The gear is only part of the equation. He's got the technique well beyond nailed.

 

[Loserchief]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Rusty uses Dunlop 6100 frets which are AFAIK the biggest one out today and pretty much never found on a production guitar(regular jumbos look pretty small compared to those). Secondly he has a paper-thin neck ,super low action and technqiue at insane levels. I bet onbody will sound like him even if they play the same stuff.

 

[Dabatross]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

yeah I agree with that, Rusty definitely has the technique nailed. I don't have the patience to practice runs like his as much as he has.

 

[sosomething]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

"High gain only serves to make things sound unmusical and is a crutch for sloppy players to cover up their inferior technique."

LOL @ You

As for the Nashville session cats who travel with comps in their pockets everywhere they go, I would get great pleasure out of being a fly on the wall while a certain few posters in here explained how they're just compensating for lack of skill.

 

[Binnerscot]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

High gain has one really big impact on the sound - compression!

That is both good and bad depending on what you are trying to achieve. It can assist with fluid legato, but you lose so much in dynamics that it may have an adverse affect on your phrasing. I grew up on high gain and I am still looking for that perfect high gain tone with expressive dynamics (Mesa is the closest to whats in my head so far)

I don't think I'll comment on the technique thing. You can hear when someone can play, regardless of gain, compressor, pickups, etc.

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Question about gain and pickups

Like others here said, it's a completely different approach in playing when you use high gain and when you use low gain.
High gain is a tool to make fast legato playing sound good and low gain is a tool to make a more expressive playing sound good.

When you play fast legato runs with all this speed and so many notes, no matter how good your technique is or what spiritual dances have you done beofore to make it, you're simply not a machine. High gain it's just a necessery tool for a different style.

When you switch from low to high gain and the reverse you alter your whole playing style. Have you heard Yngwie playing high speed leads in his acoustic? I personally don't like at all how it sounds. The picking noise covers the biggest part of the whole note and that is ugly. Music is all about good sound.

As for compressor, pedals and all that, every player chooses what best fits him/her to express his/herself best. It's matter of inspiration.