Question about magnets effect tone

[Lewguitar]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

It looks to me like that diagram is counter to what we actually hear. The bridge is picking up more mids and lows. What we hear from a pickup located in the bridge position is a lot more treble/highs. Why is that? If I understand that then maybe I will also be able to understand why the neck position pup is seeing the broadest frequency range when in fact what we hear from the neck pup is primarily mids and lows so intense they are often times muddy.

Unplug your guitar.

Then strum a bit over the neck pickup. Nice and deep and bassy...right?

Now Strum a bit over the bridge pickup close to the bridge. Not so deep and bassy. In fact, kind of thin and bright and twangy...right?

All the pickup is doing is picking up the sound of the string at those two different points on the string.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

^^
I think the double wide style is used for bass guitars. Probably too much low end for a regular guitar. I have heard of mini humbuckers being used in several models of guitars.

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It seems to me that we want the pup to see as much as possible, then we can decide what to do with the "information."

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

All the pickup is doing is picking up the sound of the string at those two different points on the string.

That's mostly right, though the reason it sounds brighter when you pluck it closer to the bridge is because the sharp edge of you guitar pick is causing harmonic excitation between itself and the end of the string, which then subsequently propagates across the entire string. If you do this with the flesh of your finger, you will notice that this doesn't happen quite so much, because your soft finger skin does not cause that harmonic excitation to nearly the degree.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

It seems to me that we want the pup to see as much as possible, then we can decide what to do with the "information."

The bridge pickup is technically the best suited for the task. That's why the Roland Guitar Synth places it's pickup right by the bridge.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Two reasons:

1) The illustration is not to scale. The higher harmonics are tiny compared to the fundamental, and become increasingly tinier the higher you go. The illustration shows them as being the same size because it's purpose is to illustrate harmonic width as opposed to harmonic amplitude.

2) Look again at how much of the fundamental movement the bridge pickups is actually seeing:

It's smaller compared to the middle or neck. The is the primary reason the neck pickup is so bass heavy.

As you know I am on the slow side so bear with me. In the illustration isn't the bridge on the left and the neck on the right like we would see if looking at a guitar?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

As you know I am on the slow side so bear with me. In the illustration isn't the bridge on the left and the neck on the right like we would see if looking at a guitar?

Yeah it's not the best illustration, the bridge would be far right, the headstock far left, and the 12th fret at center. The illustration shows what would happen if you held the 12th fret, so the waves all start from that point. The three squares at the bottom represent three Stratocaster pickups, and the red and blue lines indicate how much harmonic movement each pickup sees relative to the other. The top most line is the fundamental note, or first harmonic, the next line down is the second harmonic, etc.

Here's some trivia, when you perform pinch harmonics, what you're doing is muting the fundamental at the center of it's arc, or it's "anti node", which also happens to be the node of the second harmonic. Since that is where the 2nd harmonic is moving very little, your finger does not mute it's movement, but it competently kills off the fundamental, or first harmonic, hence the higher pitched sound you get with pinch harmonics. If you're curious to know what that 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics sound like on their own, that's a quick way to find out.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I think you have it backwards.

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[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Yeah it's not the best illustration, the bridge would be far right, the headstock far left, and the 12th fret at center. The illustration shows what would happen if you held the 12th fret, so the waves all start from that point. The three squares at the bottom represent three Stratocaster pickups, and the red and blue lines indicate how much harmonic movement each pickup sees relative to the other. The top most line is the fundamental note, or first harmonic, the next line down is the second harmonic, etc.

Here's some trivia, when you perform pinch harmonics, what you're doing is muting the fundamental at the center of it's arc, or it's "anti node", which also happens to be the node of the second harmonic. Since that is where the 2nd harmonic is moving very little, your finger does not mute it's movement, but it competently kills off the fundamental, or first harmonic, hence the higher pitched sound you get with pinch harmonics. If you're curious to know what that 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics sound like on their own, that's a quick way to find out.

That explains a lot. It is opposite of what you would intuitively expect. It seems that you get a tighter tone spectrum at the bridge, mostly treble thick. Whereas, at the neck you seem to have a broader tonal spectrum to work with. Look at what Clapton does with that Stratocaster neck pup.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

It is counter intuitive, for sure. It just goes to show that what your ears think its true, and what is technically true, are often two different things.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

That's mostly right, though the reason it sounds brighter when you pluck it closer to the bridge is because the sharp edge of you guitar pick is causing harmonic excitation between itself and the end of the string, which then subsequently propagates across the entire string. If you do this with the flesh of your finger, you will notice that this doesn't happen quite so much, because your soft finger skin does not cause that harmonic excitation to nearly the degree.

I didn't give a reason. I just wrote about what would occur. Has nothing to do with soft skin though.

 

[loversmoon]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

This was his last email. Yes when I say builder I mean winder. I've contact Duncan about making what I have in mind which is basically a custom custom in tele form. Only Differences is I'd like less highs And more lows. Already got a response back that it can be done but wouldn't Be exactly like the full size bucker. Which to me is good. Now I just need to talk myself into pulling the trigger.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

It seems to me that we want the pup to see as much as possible, then we can decide what to do with the "information."

Not in many cases, or even most. You want a range of options that you can switch in. A pickup that merely sees everything cannot be usefully filtered. You couldn't get a bridge pickup type tone simply by removing a certain range of frequencies like an eq does.

You seem to be strolling down the engineering side, and completely ignoring the artistry side

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I've contact Duncan about making what I have in mind which is basically a custom custom in tele form. Only Differences is I'd like less highs And more lows. Already got a response back that it can be done but wouldn't Be exactly like the full size bucker.

What SD is saying is that inherently the smaller version of the CC will have less treble and more mids that its full sized brother without having to do anything special. That's why so many Strat-sized little-brother humbuckers have ceramic magnets...to try to boost back up the treble.

By going with A2 magnets you will have a very midrange-heavy pickup (but this may be exactly what you are looking for).

In any case, DO NOT go back to that "winder" who doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about (or who is trying to pull a fast one on you and sell you a stock pup, that he hasn't been able to get rid of for 18 years, for a custom-wound price).

 

[loversmoon]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Well his prices are half the price of a Duncan. I can now see why. I actually really love a midrange bloomy kind of pickup.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I don't care much about the illustration, I just know from real world experience that wider pickups pick the lows up better. A very common complaint about P90 sets is that the neck is (a) muddy, or at least tubby, and (b) it often overpowers the bridge as a result. Especially in vintage-clone sets, and this problem is even worse with P90 sets than humbuckers.

So I thought, it has two bar magnets plus the screws in between, that's pretty wide. What if I use narrower bar magnets in my P90 neck pickups? Would a narrower magnetic field trim the fat a little? I tried it, problem instantly solved, so I don't make my neck-90's any other way now.

Take it a step further and make a rod-magnet P90. An even narrower magnetic field and the sound is much thinner and brighter still.

The progression in these 3 examples from heavy to light low freq content is in direct correlation to the width of the magnetic field -- and nothing else has changed, not the coil, the bobbin, the baseplate, the position relative to the strings. It's more than a coincidence. No pickup can see that whole fundamental wavelength; even if it could it would sound terrible, like the tone knob was on minus 20. The character of any instrument is a ratio of the fundamental and the harmonics -- both on the attack and the ring/bloom/sustain. A wider magnetic field will give a little more of the fundamental relative to the harmonics in the same position on the string, a narrow field a bit less.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

I don't care much about the illustration, I just know from real world experience that wider pickups pick the lows up better. A very common complaint about P90 sets is that the neck is (a) muddy, or at least tubby, and (b) it often overpowers the bridge as a result. Especially in vintage-clone sets, and this problem is even worse with P90 sets than humbuckers.

So I thought, it has two bar magnets plus the screws in between, that's pretty wide. What if I use narrower bar magnets in my P90 neck pickups? Would a narrower magnetic field trim the fat a little? I tried it, problem instantly solved, so I don't make my neck-90's any other way now.

Take it a step further and make a rod-magnet P90. An even narrower magnetic field and the sound is much thinner and brighter still.

The progression in these 3 examples from heavy to light low freq content is in direct correlation to the width of the magnetic field -- and nothing else has changed, not the coil, the bobbin, the baseplate, the position relative to the strings. It's more than a coincidence. No pickup can see that whole fundamental wavelength; even if it could it would sound terrible, like the tone knob was on minus 20. The character of any instrument is a ratio of the fundamental and the harmonics -- both on the attack and the ring/bloom/sustain. A wider magnetic field will give a little more of the fundamental relative to the harmonics in the same position on the string, a narrow field a bit less.

Alternate explanation: by removing more and more steel and/or AlNiCo, you reduce the inductance and raise the resonant peak.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Raising the resonant peak doesn't make all that bottom go away.

If you took two such magnets and stood them on their sides inside the bobbins, the sound would be thinner, brighter, very little bottom. (This would be a Firebird pickup.) Same amount of Alnico present but the field is greatly narrowed.

While we're at it, let's compare a Deluxe-style minibucker with a Firebird mini. There are two magnets in the Firebird mini. Admittedly they are more narrow than the standard 1/2" bar mag in the Deluxe but together they still constitute more total Alnico than the Deluxe bar mag. Granted, the Deluxe mini doesn't exactly pump out massive bass but even so, the Firebird is still much thinner, very, very little low/low-mid response. Stood on their sides, the two bar mags make two very narrow magnetic fields.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Rather than talk about the specific resonant peak of a Firebird pickup, or the inherent flat low-end of an LC low pass circuit, what I'd really like to know is how a "slimmer" relationship between the magnets and the strings would result in less low end. I can't think of any physical explanation as to why that would be the case. You might not agree that a higher resonant peak the dominant causality here, but at least it can be accounted for in physical terms.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Can you post photos from your phone with Tapatalk or does it have to link to a website? If I could post from my phone, I have an example of an MEC bass pickup that illustrates what you're talking about. It looks to be about as wide as two P-90s with big fat pole pieces.

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[Demanic]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Can you post photos from your phone with Tapatalk or does it have to link to a website? If I could post from my phone, I have an example of an MEC bass pickup that illustrates what you're talking about. It looks to be about as wide as two P-90s with big fat pole pieces.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk