question about outputs of pups?

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

OK i did a search here on some different high output pups(X2N,500XL,dimebucker,DD,EMG 81)
now my question is this, on many of the post's everyone is saying that the X2N is just too much output at 510mv?
the duncan distortion is stock form puts out about 475mv which is not that under the X2N?
i am guessing a EMG 81 would be way up there as well correct?
even though it has a weak magnet and a low resistance it is ran active with a 9 volt and i was told that makes it as hot as a X2N or a DD in the end?
I love my modded DD(savage distortion) but i would really like to try other hot pups and the X2N seems like it would be a good metal pup for a 81 type tone?

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Where are you getting the 475mV from for the DD?

That wouldn't be at all consistent with Dimarzios scale anyway as a mV measurement.


And by ears and general experience, the Distortion isn't really that much hotter than a Dimarzio SUper Distortion which is 425mV only on Dimarzios scale. In reality they are about the same IMO.

The X2N is a good bit hotter than the EMG 81....way too hot for my metal tastes anyway. How much output does one need with all the high gain pre-amps/PODs etc out there today. It just gets silly IMO.

 

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Where are you getting the 475mV from for the DD?

That wouldn't be at all consistent with Dimarzios scale anyway as a mV measurement.


And by ears and general experience, the Distortion isn't really that much hotter than a Dimarzio SUper Distortion which is 425mV only on Dimarzios scale. In reality they are about the same IMO.

The X2N is a good bit hotter than the EMG 81....way too hot for my metal tastes anyway. How much output does one need with all the high gain pre-amps/PODs etc out there today. It just gets silly IMO.

I had a tech do the dimarzio method on a DD
what he did was use a voltmeter, and tune the guitar to standard pitch, set the pup to the desired height and pluck a open A string and record the results(millivolts)
this is how dimarzio rates all their pups
BTW,a DD is 50 more millivolts than a super D by dimarzio
which in the real world is not that big a difference at all
a super D is at 425mv and the DD at it's 475mv is very close.
this is what led me to believe that a X2N at 510mv is not all that much more than a DD in the REAL WORLD. :laugh2:
it takes 1000mv's to make 1 volt, so 50mv's from a super D to the duncan DD is not a lot and the 35mv's more the X2N has over a DD is not much at all if you see what i mean?

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

That comparison is not accurate because the tech would have had to have the same exact pluck, string height, guitar...etc that Dimarzio did when they did their tests for a valid comparison...highly unlikely IMO.

I seriously doubt the DD is 475 on Dimarzios "scale"...it's a high output pickup but I've had them both and the DD isn't really hotter than the Super Distortion...more presence and focused frequencies yes..but output...no.

Furthermore, I've used an X2N too and the output from that is definitely a jump up or a class up in output from both the DD and the Super Distortion which also leads me to believe they are very similar in output.

 

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

That comparison is not accurate because the tech would have had to have the same exact pluck, string height, guitar...etc that Dimarzio did when they did their tests for a valid comparison...highly unlikely IMO.

I seriously doubt the DD is 475 on Dimarzios "scale"...it's a high output pickup but I've had them both and the DD isn't really hotter than the Super Distortion...more presence and focused frequencies yes..but output...no.

Furthermore, I've used an X2N too and the output from that is definitely a jump up or a class up in output from both the DD and the Super Distortion which also leads me to believe they are very similar in output.

:smack: i dont see what is so hard to believe that a DD is at least 475mv?
it is a awg 44,16.8K pu that uses a large ceramic magnet and the dimarzio super d is at 13.7K,large ceramic magnet and uses HEX poles which if you did not know decrease the output of the pup compared to the screw/stud poles
the DD uses screw/stud poles and it wound hotter than the super D?
let me ask? where is it you draw your output vs output conclusions from?
by ear?

 

[Davey]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

you have to take height and the strenght of the pluck into consideration. even if the same person does it, the pluck is never the same strenght unless they're using a machine operated arm.

why do people want milivolt output anyway? what do you get from it? you get 450mv and say WOW, this pup is LOUD! or something? allen poles arent that significant a decrease in output to be measurable. all they do is change the magnetic field the strings move through and they would have to drasticaly change that in order to decrease output.

why the hell do you need milivolt output anyway? tell me that? i'd like to understand it. arent the gauge wire, dc resistance and magnet type enough to draw a conclusion?

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

:smack: i dont see what is so hard to believe that a DD is at least 475mv?
it is a awg 44,16.8K pu that uses a large ceramic magnet and the dimarzio super d is at 13.7K,large ceramic magnet and uses HEX poles which if you did not know decrease the output of the pup compared to the screw/stud poles
the DD uses screw/stud poles and it wound hotter than the super D?
let me ask? where is it you draw your output vs output conclusions from?
by ear?

Well since neither of use know the construction of all 3 pickups but we do know the mV comparison of the SuperD and the X2N the only way you could get an estimate is by ear because you don't have the same setup that Dimarzio does for getting on their mV scale.

I've owned and used all three of these pickups and going by my own ears there is a good amount of output difference between the X2N and SuperD and we know that is 85mV on Dimarzio's scale. And my ears also tell me that the SuperD and DD are roughly the same output....yes this is an assumption but that is ALL that we have here.

If there was definitive proof that the DD has higher output then I'll sure believe it, however, when all we have is assumptions I'm going to trust my own ears first.

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

why do people want milivolt output anyway? what do you get from it? you get 450mv and say WOW, this pup is LOUD! or something? allen poles arent that significant a decrease in output to be measurable. all they do is change the magnetic field the strings move through and they would have to drasticaly change that in order to decrease output.

why the hell do you need milivolt output anyway? tell me that? i'd like to understand it. arent the gauge wire, dc resistance and magnet type enough to draw a conclusion?

Why wouldn't you want a company to publish mV values?? It tells you EXACTLY how much output it has in relation to their other pickups. NO GUESSING.

Look through SD's tone chart and you'll see that the DC Resistance isn't nearly enough to determine output....if it was, you wouldn't see output bars. Where did they get those values is what I'd like to know.

Magnet type, strength, and configuration affect output as well as other factors.....mV takes ALL these into consideration as far as I know for a final output reading provided the same setup is used for all readings.

I've picked several Dimarzios and have been dead on with output every single time...no guessing.

 

[rocksoldier]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I tried the super d, and dd side to side, and i think the dd is just a little bit hotter.
But it´s not like a pickup is better just because it is a tad hotter, the big diffrence bethween the the two is the sound charachter, not the milvolts IMO.

 

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

why do people want milivolt output anyway? what do you get from it? you get 450mv and say WOW, this pup is LOUD! or something? allen poles arent that significant a decrease in output to be measurable. all they do is change the magnetic field the strings move through and they would have to drasticaly change that in order to decrease output.

why the hell do you need milivolt output anyway? tell me that? i'd like to understand it. arent the gauge wire, dc resistance and magnet type enough to draw a conclusion?

:laugh2: i will call you the ANTI-millivolt guy from now on! :laugh2:
wire gauge,magnet,resistance will NOT tell you the output of a pup
millivolts does!!!!!!!
:nana:

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I tried the super d, and dd side to side, and i think the dd is just a little bit hotter.
But it´s not like a pickup is better just because it is a tad hotter, the big diffrence bethween the the two is the sound charachter, not the milvolts IMO.

I agree, the DD could be a touch hotter but the real difference is the sound character.

 

[SAVAGE DISTORTION]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I agree, the DD could be a touch hotter but the real difference is the sound character.

well since i respect your opinion on this i will not disagree with this
dimarzio has always said that if a pup has big mids it will drive the amp harder than one that is scooped?
the DD to me has a crunchy/grainy tone (real metal sounding) and the super D is more about the lows and low mids.
of the two i would say the DD appears to be the hotter pup.
it has a hotter wind

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

well since i respect your opinion on this i will not disagree with this
dimarzio has always said that if a pup has big mids it will drive the amp harder than one that is scooped?
the DD to me has a crunchy/grainy tone (real metal sounding) and the super D is more about the lows and low mids.
of the two i would say the DD appears to be the hotter pup.
it has a hotter wind

It could very well be that the DD is a little hotter, I just think a whole 50mV is alot despite the EQ differences.

 

[DeadSkinSlayer3]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Overall I don't think that the output of a pickup determines how hot it is, or how much it distorts the preamp as compared to another pickup.

The JB, Invader, and DD all have about the same output in DC Resistance, But the JB doesn't sound or feel as hot as a DD or Invader.

 

[rspst14]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Remember that DC resistance is not a measure of output. Millivolts are a measure of output, but remember that those numbers are only useful when comparing different pickups in the same guitar, with the exact same setup, same pickup height, plucking the string at the same intensity, etc. Even then, things like the quality of your solder joints can affect the reading. As others have mentioned, the readings your tech got can't be directly compared with the numbers Dimarzio got in their test. At best, they are ballpark figures.

Ryan

 

[Davey]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

:laugh2: i will call you the ANTI-millivolt guy from now on! :laugh2:
wire gauge,magnet,resistance will NOT tell you the output of a pup
millivolts does!!!!!!!
:nana:

like i give a ****.

i dont get it how people rely on milivolts so much. like it's a ****ing religion

do you know the height the dimarzio tech used to measure the output?
do you know how 'hard' he plucked the string? and where on the string he plucked?
do you intend to play with that strenght all the time to maintain that output?

okay, you got a starting reference, but then again it comes down to how hard the tech plucked the string.

you need the wire gauge, DC resistance and magnet type info more than you need mV, so here's to your milivolts

outputs cant be measured accurately due to many more variations of diferent guitars, height settings and cos of diferent aproaches to playing. whereas DC resistance, magnet type, wire gauge ETC is set

you still didnt tell me why you need it so much? just to tell you how hot the pup is? DC resistance will tell you that just fine. by how soon it will start distorting the preamp? thats diferent from amp to amp and from player to player

 

[ranalli]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

like i give a ****.

i dont get it how people rely on milivolts so much. like it's a ****ing religion

do you know the height the dimarzio tech used to measure the output?
do you know how 'hard' he plucked the string? and where on the string he plucked?
do you intend to play with that strenght all the time to maintain that output?

okay, you got a starting reference, but then again it comes down to how hard the tech plucked the string.

you need the wire gauge, DC resistance and magnet type info more than you need mV, so here's to your milivolts

outputs cant be measured accurately due to many more variations of diferent guitars, height settings and cos of diferent aproaches to playing. whereas DC resistance, magnet type, wire gauge ETC is set

you still didnt tell me why you need it so much? just to tell you how hot the pup is? DC resistance will tell you that just fine. by how soon it will start distorting the preamp? thats diferent from amp to amp and from player to player

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

Look at the SD tone chart. The Distortion Trembucker has a DC Resistance of 21.3K yet the bars show it has a little LESS output than the Invader which is 16.8K....BOTH with a ceramic magnet.

What does that tell you?? DC RESISTANCE DOES NOT GIVE OUTPUT. Furthermore, where did those output bars come from?? Certainly NOT from DC Resistance so SD must be using some kind of "formula" as well.


Dimarzio DID most likely use the same setup, pluck, etc when making their measurements so their mVs are most likely accurate between pickups.

mV is useful for knowing exactly how hot pickups are in relation to each other. By knowing that it is MUCH easier to choose pickups with outputs that you want.

If I'm trying to match a neck and a bridge pickup, and I know the Super Distortion is 425mV it would be a good idea to go a bit cooler for the neck obviously....so I might choose a PAF Pro which is around 300mV. Try to figure that out with DC resistance values......

And this has worked every time for me when choosing pickups...I only need to have tried one or two Dimarzios beforehand to know whether I want to go hotter or cooler and how much.

 

[rocksoldier]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

well since i respect your opinion on this i will not disagree with this
dimarzio has always said that if a pup has big mids it will drive the amp harder than one that is scooped?
the DD to me has a crunchy/grainy tone (real metal sounding) and the super D is more about the lows and low mids.
of the two i would say the DD appears to be the hotter pup.
it has a hotter wind

I agree, the dd sounds very metal :saeek:
But i still prefer my old super distortions

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

I have a "formula" for determining the relative output of pickups. I've come to the conclusion that DC resis is unreliable, and the mv thing is TOTALLY worthless. What guage of strings did the guy have? What guage pick? How hard did he hit the strings? Exactly how many millimeters are the pickups set from the strings?

Anywho, on to my formula.

Here goes... the first Duncan pickup I ever had was a Screamin Demon. It, therefore, is the benchmark. The next pickups I got were 2 EMG 81s. They were way hotter, therefore, their output is "way hotter than the Demon." Now that I've established my method, here's my rundown.

Duncan Distortion - "way hotter than the Demon, not as hot as an EMG 81."

JB - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the Distortion."

Invader - "hotter than the EMG 81, but not by much."

DMZ Evo - "hotter than the JB, not as hot as the Distortion."

DMZ Air Norton - "Similar to the JB."

DMZ Super Distortion - "hotter than the Evo, not as hot as the (Duncan) Distortion."

Custom Custom - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the JB."

Custom - "Just under the JB."

 

[some_dude]

Re: question about outputs of pups?

Duncan Distortion - "way hotter than the Demon, not as hot as an EMG 81."

JB - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the Distortion."

Invader - "hotter than the EMG 81, but not by much."

DMZ Evo - "hotter than the JB, not as hot as the Distortion."

DMZ Air Norton - "Similar to the JB."

DMZ Super Distortion - "hotter than the Evo, not as hot as the (Duncan) Distortion."

Custom Custom - "hotter than the Demon, not as hot as the JB."

Custom - "Just under the JB."

Finally, a scale I can understand!

I never understood all that other mv and DC sh*t anyway. I just look at the little bar graphs.